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Thread: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

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    Default difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    hi im new to all of this and was jsut wondering th difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor from a XW.... and in ur opinon which is better and why etc......... and what cheap mods can you do to either to get em moving a bit better?????????????
    cheers!

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    welll i don't know that much about the difference i can say this though. The clevland was built in clevland(USA) as the name suggests... the windsor is built in windsor (canada) which is where all the current BOSS engines are now built... I think the XW GT-HOII was a clevland and was also the highest reving and most powerfull engine offered in a ford GT-HO. This is mainly due to the crash clutch aswell.

    Alot of purists argue the clevland was the last true ford USA v8. As such it has the reputation of greatness. Someone more knowlageable will have to tell you about the technicall differences however with either 351 im sure you get a comprable performance etc.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Firstly the differences: Bore spacing is the same and cylinder head bolts are in the same location, so heads are interchangeable with modification to cooling passages, and bellhousing holes are the same, but that's where the similarities end. Clevelands have "canted valve" heads (the valves are twisted and tilted) whereas Windsors are inline like a Ford FE, small chev, holden or chrysler. Cleveland heads are visably wider which gives the impression the Clevo is bigger. Cleveland has no cooling passages in the intake manifold so the thermostat housing is in the block rather than the manifold (this is the easiest way to tell them apart). The crank centreline to cylinder deck distance is 9.2 inches for Cleveland, 9.5 inches for 351 Windsor and 8.2 inches for 302 Windsor (including late model 5.0 litre). No other parts interchange.

    As for preference; in Australia, a stock or mild rebuild (up to 350HP) is probably cheaper for a Cleveland. The US aftermarket really supports the Windsor well so there is a massive range of bits so a 350-500 HP is easier for a Windsor. For all out racing, its whatever you prefer with the new aluminium heads available for Clevelands, but they ain't cheap. Then again, speed never is.

    Oh, the Phase III had the most beans and after the Cleveland ceased production in the US, Windsor production was also done at the Cleveland plant.

    The Cleveland is regarded by some as the finest small block V8 to come out of Detroit, but development of this engine in the US ended a long time ago.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Don't quote me on it but I always understood one of the major differences was the clevo was 90 degrees between banks and the windsor was 60 degrees, this meant the cleveland would generate huge torque and the windsor RPM and thus HP if you wanted to play enough.



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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    No, all traditional American style V8 engines are 90 degree. If it has pushrods, it's 90 degree. The current 4.6/5.4L Ford V8 is also 90 degree. Cylinder bank angle doesn't really affect power production capability, it's more about cylinder head flow.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    In order to get the perfect primary balance that V8's are renouned for, the cylinder angle has to be 90 degrees. There have only been a few non-90 degree V8's and if my memory serves me right, they were all race engines (Formula 1 & Indy Car stuff).

    The reason the Small Block Fords (221, 260, 289, 302 & 255) look like they have a narrow block is an illusion created by the low "deck height" of 8.2 inches and the canted heads.

    Also they were increadably light for their size due to the thin wall cast techniques that Ford pioneered in the late fifties early sixties.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    why do you need differant inlet manifolds if the angles are the same? also i may be wrong,but is one of the motor's under square?, in the late 70's and early 80's i was a holden/chev man so i am uncertain.
    Last edited by GT0901; 07-09-2004 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    And the Clevo is heavier isn't it???

    Clevo sounds better, both in pronounciation and exhaust note..... :wink

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Its a crying shame there is no modern short-stroke to replace the windsor after it was retired. Now were stuck with high-torque low-revv'n 5.4's when the 4.6 can rev far high and achieve a much higher output from a standard non s-c motor. I sure hope ford design a new '351 short block to on the new Gen4 which will sadly wipe the floor clean for GM. Has anyone heard about the Ford 427 prototype was a 'new' 427 motor or was it just a myth. A new 427 sure would be nice.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Ok lesson learned. The 351's were about the same width anyway because of the increased deck height on them, they were ****** to change plugs on. At this point in time I'd have to go for the windsor as the base for parts is bigger globally, cheap mods include cleveland heads and a boss manifold with some cam changes but depending on your final goals I would rather save up as there are much better heads some wicked stroker kits and other bits available in the US that would be hard to match the results with the cleveland.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Quote Originally Posted by GT0901
    why do you need differant inlet manifolds if the angles are the same? also i may be wrong,but is one of the motor's under square?, in the late 70's and early 80's i was a holden/chev man so i am uncertain.
    well latey it seems theres conflicting opinions on what oversquare and undersquare refer to. everyone seems to refer to the 5.4 as undersquare with its 90mm bore and 105mm stroke, so the 351 with a bore of i think just under 102mm and a stroke in the 80mm range, you might call it oversquare

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Quote Originally Posted by ELSpeedo
    Has anyone heard about the Ford 427 prototype was a 'new' 427 motor or was it just a myth. A new 427 sure would be nice.

    The 427 concept which previewed Ford's new retro design themes for a sedan featured a 427 cu. in. V10 based off the MOD V8 range. The latest Shelby Cobra Concept had an evolution of the V10 MOD, with capacity down to 6.4L but revs over 7000rpm.

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    Default Re: difference between a 351 cleveland and a 351 windsor

    Quote Originally Posted by GT0901
    why do you need differant inlet manifolds if the angles are the same? also i may be wrong,but is one of the motor's under square?, in the late 70's and early 80's i was a holden/chev man so i am uncertain.
    You need different manifolds for 2 reasons.

    The main one is the fact (as I posted earlier) that the 351 Windsor block is 0.3 inches taller than the Cleveland (9.5 vs 9.2 inches) this means the heads are further apart and so a wider manifold is needed.

    Secondly, the Windsor has coolant running through the manifold, whereas the Cleveland does not.

    I'm not sure that a Cleveland block is heavier than a Windsor (I would expect the opppsite) but Cleveland heads are definitely heavier.

    And to correct a previous post, Clevelands have canted valve heads, not Windsors.

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