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    Default Meanwhile in the Ukraine...


    Defeat? Whats that? A court challenge it seems. The Cold War is getting colder.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...opes-next-war/
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lection-result
    http://www.eurotopics.net/en/archiv/...-eyes-the-West
    Quote-
    Ukraine's prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, was today under pressure to concede defeat in the country's presidential election after international observers hailed Sunday's poll as fair and "truly competitive".

    Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said there were no indications of serious fraud and described the vote as an "impressive display" of democracy. "For everyone in Ukraine this election was a victory," João Soares, president of the OSCE's parliamentary assembly, said.

    With 98.8% of the votes counted, the Russian-leaning opposition leader, Viktor Yanukovych, had a clear 2.9% lead over Tymoshenko. But Tymoshenko has refused to recognise her opponent's victory, and according to local media reports she has ordered her lawyers to challenge the result in court.

    Tymoshenko's campaign declined to comment on the reports, but her parliamentary allies repeated allegations of widespread fraud.

    "A decision has been taken to challenge results in the individual polling stations and to demand a recount at those stations," said Yelena Shustik, a deputy with her parliamentary bloc.

    But the OSCE's comments will make it much harder for Tymoshenko to sustain a legal challenge against the outcome. The monitors hinted that Tymoshenko should admit defeat, noting that in any election there are "winners and losers. It is now time for the country's political leaders to listen to the people's verdict and make sure the transition of power is peaceful and constructive," Soares said.

    Quote-
    In these times of political turmoil it's up to election winner Viktor Yanukovych to bring stability to Ukraine, writes the Süddeutsche Zeitung: "Yanukovych could manage this if he is able to bring politicians from Western Ukraine on board. ... The European Union also has every interest in a stable Ukraine, and consequently EU politicians should do all they can to exert a moderating influence on both the winner and the losers. ... Domestic stability is the precondition for any further reforms and something even the country's powerful oligarchs are pushing for from the sidelines. They too know that the country must become more democratic if it wants any further political support from the EU. And Kiev will need just that as soon as the next conflict with Moscow rolls around." (09/02/2010)

    Moscow is on the march. After invading Georgia and establishing Russia's dominance over the secessionist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Mr. Putin is now bent on dismembering Ukraine. The Russian strongman has made no secret of his contempt for Kiev's independence. At a NATO summit in April, he told President Bush that Ukraine is "not even a real state," and that much of its territory was "given away" by Russia. Mr. Putin warned that Ukraine would "cease to exist as a state" if it dared to join NATO.


    Viking and Slavic culture have had a truce for a long time (since WWII to be exact). Lets hope it stays that way.
    If you look at history the ancient rivalries are there. Its probably more obvious for our Euro viewers now but...
    Its is often that stated difference Baltic Countries and the Ukraine compare with the Rus.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 11-02-2010 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Well who thought the Georgia last year was the last of it.
    This is a rather big wake up call. Better test the Pratts
    for a bit of Backfirin'.

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/col...a_tymoshenko-0
    Pravda- trumpet of Mr Putin.

    Quote-
    The American media is already declaring Ukrainian "democracy" dead. Why? Because the people have decided they have had enough of that "democracy": of the infighting of the Western puppets and thieves, installed with massive US/EU funds, destruction of the economy, and slaving to the NATO/US/EU complex. Those people dared to voice their opinion putting Victor Yanukovich in first place in the initial elections and giving him a projected 15% lead over the fascist puppet of the West: Yulia Tymoshenko.

    Quote-
    The Neocon voice of the Wall Street Journal declared that "Ukraine Needs the West's Support"! I believe after 6 years of that support, Ukraine is more than ready to show the West the finger and already has. Not that their opinion matters. After all, the Wall Street Journal has declared that by making this vote, Ukrainians have turned away from Freedom...after all, the West is the author of freedom, as long as you choose one of the offered parties and do what you are told.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5464892.ece

    The Gas War perhaps. Makes Iraq look ordinary?

    Quote-
    Twelve European countries are now without any gas from Russia after Austria, Slovakia and the Czech Republic announced this morning that their supplies had halted altogether. Slovakia declared a state of energy emergency.

    The three join Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Hungary, Macedonia, Romania, Serbia and Turkey as the effects of Moscow's bitter row with Ukraine over gas payments inexorably spreads westwards. France, Italy and Germany have already reported that their supplies from Russia are markedly down

    Gazprom, the Russian state gas monopoly, confirmed today that it had cut the amount of gas it was shipping to Europe through Ukrainian pipelines by a further 21 million cubic metres - the amount of gas, it said, that Kiev had stolen yesterday from the supplies intended for Europe.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 11-02-2010 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    the more things change the more they stay the same.
    how long till we have the mongolia wars?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonsy View Post
    the more things change the more they stay the same.
    how long till we have the mongolia wars?
    Can China and Russia argue over Mongolia or maybe Kazakhstan?
    Then the gas and oil pipelines in the region.

    As with Russia and Japan... The Kurils.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 12-02-2010 at 08:30 PM.



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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    its been very quite there for far too long.

    i wounder how the sub war under the ice is going?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonsy View Post
    its been very quite there for far too long.

    i wounder how the sub war under the ice is going?
    nobody has run into each other since that infamous French
    and British sub collision in 2008. Lets not forget all the 'Russian' conspiracy
    theories around the Kursk either.

    As for the sub war in the N.Antlantic Artic, Med? who knows.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7892294.stm

    Quote-

    Nuclear engineer John Large told the BBC that navies often used the same "nesting grounds".
    The submarines are equipped with sonar to detect other vessels nearby but our correspondent said it might be the case that the anti-sonar devices, meant to hide the submarines from enemies, were "too effective".

    what happens when your a little too stealthy...
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 14-02-2010 at 11:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    sometime's its good to have a noise deisel run that when doing bugger all and just cruising around
    when need to sink something go off shut down flip a switch then do a run if they dont know your machinery

    are the yanks still siting on the mainline's to get info? as well as attacing themself's to certain saterlite's in space?

    if russia is so concerned about the kursk how about raising it buying the ship of state's they used to raise ussr subs in the cold war mk1
    mabey the russians are so concerned about it due to a certain communist country supplying electric curcuitry that possibly failed?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Well the Russians don't want the Ukraine to be a part of the EU.
    Ukrainians and Russians are mutually exlusive as far as Im told-
    many Ukrainians being on the yoke to the Russians would remind
    of back in the 90's when push to route the satellite governments
    run by Moscow...



    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/1...9B20BV20131204

    Quote-
    Germany's foreign minister met Ukrainian opposition leaders at their protest camp in Kiev on Wednesday, in a snub to President Viktor Yanukovich, who triggered mass street demonstrations by spurning a pact with the EU and seeking closer ties with Moscow.

    As pro-EU demonstrators packed the main square, the crisis took a further toll on Ukraine's fragile economy, with the central bank forced to support the currency and the cost of insuring the country's debt against default rising further.

    The United States backed Ukrainians' right to choose their future, but Russia criticised what it called the demonstrators' aggressive actions and said outsiders should not interfere.

    Tension was high in the capital as protesters confronted ranks of black-helmeted riot police in front of the main presidential offices and Prime Minister Mykola Azarov accused the opposition of trying to provoke violence.

    Ukrainian officials went to Moscow in search of aid to avoid a financial meltdown, while Yanukovich is in China, also seeking economic assistance.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25216727

    Quote-
    n a statement, Leonid Kravchuk, Leonid Kuchma and Viktor Yushchenko expressed "solidarity" with peaceful rallies.

    Thousands of protesters remain camped in Kiev's Independence Square, and are continuing to block the main government's building.

    They are angry at the government's last-minute decision not to sign an association deal with the EU.

    German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle on Wednesday visited protesters on Independence Square, saying that "the gates of the European Union are still open".

    Meanwhile, Russia - which wants Kiev to join the Moscow-led Customs Union - has urged the West not to interfere in Ukraine.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 05-12-2013 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Another quiet day in the Ukraine. Could be why the Iskanders
    are pointed towards Western Europe.


    Quote-
    Unknown assailants have savagely beaten a dogged Ukrainian journalist who has taken part in pro-EU rallies, triggering outrage among the opposition locked in a confrontation with President Viktor Yanukovych.
    Tetyana Chornovil, who writes for the Ukrainska Pravda opposition website, was attacked overnight Tuesday outside the capital Kiev, police said in a statement, citing the journalist.
    The prominent journalist, known for her critical reports about Yanukovych and top officials, was driving to Kiev when she noticed she was being followed by a car.
    "The driver of the suspicious car began to push her to the side. When she stopped, several men who were following her broke the back window of her car, pulled her out and started beating her," police said in a statement.

    "After that she was thrown into a ditch," police said, adding she was found next to her vehicle shortly after midnight.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/how-jour...#ixzz2ojbDPN5x

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    It doesn't surprise me that people like Putin like to use strong arm tactics. After all he is ex KGB and has known Germany's chancellor a long time as she was in the East German Stasi. She tried to make out that she had a very minor role. But in the Stasi either you were fully in or you weren't in at all.
    As for the Kursk tragedy, I like the woman Nadezhda Tylik who got up at the news conference and told the navy and the government exactly what she thought of them. She was injected by a female agent to shut her up and the cameraman that filmed her was thrown out of the news conference. The other woman who lost husbands and boyfriends had doctors in attendance at their homes giving the drugs to keep them in a constant stupor so they wouldn't do what Mrs Tylik did.
    The way Putin rules Russia seems that the more that things change the more they stay the same.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by cleaner View Post
    It doesn't surprise me that people like Putin like to use strong arm tactics. After all he is ex KGB and has known Germany's chancellor a long time as she was in the East German Stasi. She tried to make out that she had a very minor role. But in the Stasi either you were fully in or you weren't in at all.
    As for the Kursk tragedy, I like the woman Nadezhda Tylik who got up at the news conference and told the navy and the government exactly what she thought of them. She was injected by a female agent to shut her up and the cameraman that filmed her was thrown out of the news conference. The other woman who lost husbands and boyfriends had doctors in attendance at their homes giving the drugs to keep them in a constant stupor so they wouldn't do what Mrs Tylik did.
    The way Putin rules Russia seems that the more that things change the more they stay the same.
    Can you provide any proof or links that states German chancellor Angela Merkel is linked to Stasi
    As far as I know her background career is a research scientist & she entered politics in 1989 at the end of East Germany Government as a deputy spokesperson, in 1990 there was the German reunification.
    No where it states she held position as a Stasi member & you must know that Stasi members were trialed & prosecuted under the new German government.

    If she had held any important role as a Stasi member I don't think she would be in her present position today.

    Angela Merkel father had a sympathetic relationship with the communist regime, does not mean she was communist in any way.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by PD56 View Post
    Can you provide any proof or links that states German chancellor Angela Merkel is linked to Stasi
    As far as I know her background career is a research scientist & she entered politics in 1989 at the end of East Germany Government as a deputy spokesperson, in 1990 there was the German reunification.
    No where it states she held position as a Stasi member & you must know that Stasi members were trialed & prosecuted under the new German government.

    If she had held any important role as a Stasi member I don't think she would be in her present position today.

    Angela Merkel father had a sympathetic relationship with the communist regime, does not mean she was communist in any way.
    The Stazi operated not unlike the Gestapo and everybody had to work for the secret police back then or you were sent
    to a 're-education camp' or jailed for a long period of time and if you were a threat to the reigeme you just dissapeared....
    There were many stories in the Soviet block of children spying on parents if they said anything untowards the govt.
    they would dob their own parents in for the slightest infringement and people even felt nervous with their neighbours...
    They lived in paranoia in the extreme in Staziland and there are plenty of docs on youtube about their history.
    Eric Honecker was in charge back then and he advocated a 'Chinese Solution' to the problem back then when the USSR
    was collapsing and he knew the game was up. Unfourtunately when I was a kid I cheering on the Berlin Wall falling
    and I hope in Tienanmen in 1989 they would do the same. The PLA had other ideas though...

    As for Angela Merkel being a communist sypathiser is possible but considering the far left in Germany
    is the Green party there is where you will find the die-hard commies...considering Merkels great support
    for Isreal (as opposed to some other countries in the EU I won't mention cough Scotland, Belgium, Sweden)
    I think she is actually centre-right. Also considering her speeches on the dismal failure of multi-culturalism
    would indicate she is not left leaning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrMAvy_Aoak
    ...how to destroy a soul- too true.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/ukraine...-1226795503291
    Sanctions?

    Quote-
    Addressing a rally of some 10,000 supporters in central Kiev, Klitschko renewed calls for the European Union to impose sanctions
    on the country's leadership.
    "Moral support for opponents of the government is not enough,'' he said.
    The former champion boxer - who heads the Udar (Punch) party - said he hoped that, after the forthcoming Orthodox Christmas,
    there would be a new wave of protests leading to a general strike against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych.

    Personally and back on the subject I still hope they are protesting and I am not watching the Sochi
    games in protest- they way Russia has treated their Ukrainian brothers/sisters is repulsive and they will get
    their measure in time especially the Soviet Stooge leader over their who is Putin's puppet.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 07-01-2014 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by cleaner View Post
    It doesn't surprise me that people like Putin like to use strong arm tactics. After all he is ex KGB and has known Germany's chancellor a long time as she was in the East German Stasi. She tried to make out that she had a very minor role. But in the Stasi either you were fully in or you weren't in at all.
    As for the Kursk tragedy, I like the woman Nadezhda Tylik who got up at the news conference and told the navy and the government exactly what she thought of them. She was injected by a female agent to shut her up and the cameraman that filmed her was thrown out of the news conference. The other woman who lost husbands and boyfriends had doctors in attendance at their homes giving the drugs to keep them in a constant stupor so they wouldn't do what Mrs Tylik did.
    The way Putin rules Russia seems that the more that things change the more they stay the same.
    Quote- (a favorite quote of mine on the eventual demise of Vladmir Putin)

    I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
    Clarence Darrow


    It seems like you and I share common ground on Putin.
    The best way to protest against Putin is not to watch the
    Sochi games is the best way to hurt Putin.inc
    The less media time that KGB thug gets the better.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...inter-olympics
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 09-01-2014 at 08:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by ELSpeedo View Post
    The Stazi operated not unlike the Gestapo and everybody had to work for the secret police back then or you were sent
    to a 're-education camp' or jailed for a long period of time and if you were a threat to the reigeme you just dissapeared....
    There were many stories in the Soviet block of children spying on parents if they said anything untowards the govt.
    they would dob their own parents in for the slightest infringement and people even felt nervous with their neighbours...
    They lived in paranoia in the extreme in Staziland and there are plenty of docs on youtube about their history.
    Eric Honecker was in charge back then and he advocated a 'Chinese Solution' to the problem back then when the USSR
    was collapsing and he knew the game was up. Unfourtunately when I was a kid I cheering on the Berlin Wall falling
    and I hope in Tienanmen in 1989 they would do the same. The PLA had other ideas though...

    As for Angela Merkel being a communist sypathiser is possible but considering the far left in Germany
    is the Green party there is where you will find the die-hard commies...considering Merkels great support
    for Isreal (as opposed to some other countries in the EU I won't mention cough Scotland, Belgium, Sweden)
    I think she is actually centre-right. Also considering her speeches on the dismal failure of multi-culturalism
    would indicate she is not left leaning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrMAvy_Aoak
    ...how to destroy a soul- too true.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/ukraine...-1226795503291
    Sanctions?

    Quote-
    Addressing a rally of some 10,000 supporters in central Kiev, Klitschko renewed calls for the European Union to impose sanctions
    on the country's leadership.
    "Moral support for opponents of the government is not enough,'' he said.
    The former champion boxer - who heads the Udar (Punch) party - said he hoped that, after the forthcoming Orthodox Christmas,
    there would be a new wave of protests leading to a general strike against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych.

    Personally and back on the subject I still hope they are protesting and I am not watching the Sochi
    games in protest- they way Russia has treated their Ukrainian brothers/sisters is repulsive and they will get
    their measure in time especially the Soviet Stooge leader over their who is Putin's puppet.
    In other words she had nothing to do with Stasi!

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote Originally Posted by PD56 View Post
    In other words she had nothing to do with Stasi!


    In a nutshell yes. Vladmir Putin is one of my 'pet' subjects.
    I've followed his progress since his early Duma days in the late
    90's till the weak half-wit Yeltsin gave him the nuclear briefcase..in 1999.
    as they wanted a strong leader to replace the humiliation of Yeltsin.
    We'll there's that old saying sometimes the solution is worse than the
    problem...

    Mr Putin is very clever and manipulative man who would not flich to remove
    his enemies and then pretend like nothing happened. A very clever
    psychopath. Thats not KGB training he seemed born with it.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...src=burger_bar

    Slate presents a interesting article however it is using American analogies to the ruthless world
    of Eastern European politics. If Putin had a rival he/she would be 'marked' and attacked
    by his PR machine and then harassed by his various authorities under control or patronage.
    If these tactics did not work and a person had a groundswell of support for them he would
    simply kill or beat them to a bloody pulp so fear would pervade in the population that resistance is futile.
    He thinks like SS Heydrich did if you keep the people quiet with false prosperity and shows of
    national pride and power that people would be in awe and fear of them. Dissidents are much easier
    to crush and useful idiots to promote his cause even if its to their detriment.
    Screaming too loud in Russia or Ukraine will get you killed. Look how many journalists have died getting
    too close to the truth there....and the Russian hackers who hit this website..
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 09-01-2014 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    The bad old days are back for those who thought the Cold War ended in 1991.

    Quote-

    Although European officials later said that financial benefits would have followed signing the AA, Kiev saw more conditions than payments. In contrast, Moscow brought cash to the table even as it threatened trade sanctions and a natural gas cut-off. Russia agreed to buy about $15 billion in Ukrainian government bonds and cut natural gas prices by a third, worth another $2 billion. The first gave Yanukovich’s government financial aid. The second benefited consumers—including the heavy industries located in Donetsk and elsewhere which tend to support Yanukovich and his Party of the Regions. Noted the New York Times, the accord provides “Yanukovich an economic and political lifeline that will spare him for now from negotiations with the International Monetary Fund, Europe or the United States.”

    Brussels and Washington were shocked, shocked at this terrible act of coercion on Russia’s part. The Washington Post denounced Moscow for treating Ukraine as a “zero-sum game.” New German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said “It is utterly scandalous how Russia used Ukraine’s economic plight for its own ends, also in order to prevent the signing of the Association Agreement with the EU.”

    The ever-bombastic Sen. John McCain visited Kiev, where he announced that Russian “interference in the affairs of Ukraine is not acceptable to the United States.” He complained that “President Putin has pulled out all the stops to coerce, intimidate and threaten Ukraine away from Europe.” Former Undersecretary of State Paula Dobriansky demanded “a broad range of measures, including WTO sanctions, Russian expulsion from the Group of Eight and even a boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics by political leaders, unless Moscow abandons its strong-arm tactics toward Kiev.”
    Former Undersecretary of State Paula Dobriansky demanded “a broad range of measures, including WTO sanctions, Russian expulsion from the Group of Eight and even a boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics by political leaders, unless Moscow abandons its strong-arm tactics toward Kiev.”

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougband...of-this-fight/

    Considering what happened to Georgia one must be careful not to
    start a return of the Iron Curtain over Europe- again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuJmb3kLE5U
    For who watch the movie and understand the Cold War is back. Killing a Lieutenant Colonel is no light matter.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 15-01-2014 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    In Europe there are no problems protesting for what you believe in as long
    as your non-violent. However as Gandhi noted even being non violent gives
    you no protection from being killed or maimed by the powers that be that
    think you are being used as tools of a foreign power rather than the ability
    to see behind a brutal governments agenda. Considering Russia has a long
    and proud history of terror throughout Eastern Europe if this keeps up
    well one can foresee what happened in the past- will happen again



    Quote-
    Two people have died in clashes between police and protesters in Ukraine's capital Kiev, the first fatalities since protests began in November against the government's rejection of a planned treaty with the European Union in favour of support from Russia.

    Protesters say the two men were shot dead by police snipers, but the government claims soldiers are not using live ammunition.

    Authorities denied that a third protester, who fell from atop the Dynamo football stadium, had died.

    Whatever the truth, the deaths are fuelling an already volatile situation in Kiev and violent clashes are continuing as people pour back into Independence Square for another mass demonstration in favour of closer ties with the European Union.

    The latest violence escalated when police began dismantling a protest camp.

    Prime minister Mykola Azarov denounced the protesters as "terrorists", his tough line appearing to foreshadow a police crackdown on protesters who massed anew in their hundreds.

    However president Viktor Yanukovich, who has so far refused to make any concessions to the protesters, raised cautious expectations of a negotiated settlement, saying he wanted no bloodshed and agreed to meet with opposition leaders.


    I think Mr Yanukovich who takes his orders from the Kremlin
    should think himself to wind up like Assad if he keeps this up
    right in the Middle of a Winter Olympics. Disgusting.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226808228511

    It reminds me of the Tiamanen Massacre just with how much footage gets out
    we may never know. The bad old days are back even for the hardest deniers.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 23-01-2014 at 08:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Will Russia send the tanks in like in Georgia once Yanakovich looses control? Thats anybodies guess.
    Or will the Ukraine collapse into civil war?



    Quote-
    The country has been in an uproar since late November, after President Viktor Yanukovych spurned closer ties with the European Union to cosy up to Moscow.

    Two months later, the streets of Kiev are a battleground between activists and the police. What started as a demand Yanukovych sign the EU pact has morphed into a nationalistic struggle, hijacked by far-rightists.

    The government poured fuel on the flames by passing tough new rules governing public assembly. In response, protesters ramped up their campaign of civil disobedience and at least five people were killed. Thursday, opposition leaders — including Vitali Klitschko, a former WBC heavyweight boxing — gave Yanukovych an ultimatum: call new elections or be forced out.

    Now, the Kremlin is weighing in. Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, played the ever-popular “interference by foreign powers” card, the BBC reported.

    “Members of several European governments rushed to the Maidan [Kiev’s Independence Square] without any invitation and took part in anti-government demonstrations,” [he said].

    Warning that the “situation is getting out of control,” Mr. Lavrov added: “We have information that much of this is being stimulated from abroad,” and condemned the violence as a “complete violation of European standards of behaviour.”

    For Mikhail Gorbachev, the last president of the Soviet Union, foreign intervention is precisely what is needed, says Alessandra Prentice at Reuters.

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...s-the-kremlin/

    http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/b...estroy-ukraine

    Quote-
    Continue with the fact that the only way Yanukovych can induce anybody to vote for him is by polarizing society. Conclude with the fact that, even if Ukrainian society is transformed into two hostile camps on the brink of civil war, there is still no way that a leader as bad as Yanukovych could ever get elected in a free and fair election. Fraud is therefore inevitable, and a violent crackdown in the aftermath of defeat or mass protest becomes the inevitable Plan B.

    So there you have it. In order to stay in power, Yanukovych will almost certainly do the following: first, transform Ukraine into a country consisting of two irreconcilable parts, thereby guaranteeing that it is unstable and ungovernable. And, second, he’ll support one side against the other with coercion and, in effect, attempt to rule with martial law.

    If that happens, Ukraine’s conversion into an authoritarian sultanate will be complete. Worse, since the country’s survival and integrity as a state will then depend entirely on Yanukovych and his dubious ruling abilities, it’s quite possible that the sultanate will collapse and that either Ukraine will descend into civil conflict or its eastern provinces will be annexed by a Russia fearful of spill-over and mass refugees.

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...ead-in-ukraine

    "We are not scared of responsibility for the future of Ukraine. We take responsibility and are ready to take the country into the European Union," Yatsenyuk told the cheering crowd.


    The EU at war with Russia? Politically yes. Militarily no. Unless things get out of control.

    Quote-
    European Union leaders Friday revived Cold War rhetoric Friday, accusing Russia of bullying Ukraine into ditching a landmark deal so the former Soviet republic would stay locked in Moscow's orbit.

    At a two-day E.U. summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign the deal at the last minute, acknowledging that Moscow had him cornered.

    "I have been one-on-one with Russia for three and a half years under very unequal conditions," he told German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

    The agreement sought to improve trade with, streamline industry rules in and bring about key democratic reforms in Ukraine.

    Yanukovych complained that the E.U. hadn't offered enough in financial incentives to secure his signature. French President Francois Hollande ruled out more E.U. funds to sweeten the deal.

    Russia had worked aggressively to derail the deal by imposing painful trade sanctions and threatening Ukraine with giant gas bills. And Ukraine knows what Russian pressure feels like.

    http://america.aljazeera.com/article...romrussia.html
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...



    Abducted, tortured and crucified. Looks like the Ukrainian situation is detriorating even further than I expect.
    The Ukranian secret police have learned well from the Russian mentors it seems
    Violence would demand retribution and so it repeats on and worsens both sides. I wonder what Russia is thinking
    on the eve of Soochi...

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-0...rtured/5232306
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-9098770.html

    http://www.news.com.au/world/ukraine...-1226815445519
    The Ukranian Army comes into the spotlight while trying to stay out of the politically motivated violence.

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...aine-officials
    Canada denies entry to certain Ukrainian officials and diplomats.

    Quote-
    A prominent Ukrainian opposition activist who vanished eight days ago has claimed he was kidnapped, tortured and left to die in the suburbs of the capital Kiev.
    Mr Bulatov disappeared on 22 January when the AutoMaidan motorcade he was travelling with was ambushed. Activists at the anti-government protest said
    they were beaten by police and hired thugs. He said those who held him had Russian accents, but does not know who they were.

    Quote II-
    A leading anti-government protester in Ukraine has reappeared eight days after going missing, claiming he was abducted and "crucified".

    Dmytro Bulatov, 35, one of the leaders of anti-government protest motorcades called "automaidan", turned up on Thursday (local time) with his face badly beaten and with wounds to his hands.

    He has told a Ukraine television station that during a week of being confined, he was tortured by his kidnappers.
    It comes as the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is calling for an investigation into claims of torture in Ukraine.
    Mr Bulatov says he feels lucky to be alive.

    "I was crucified. I've got holes in my hands," he said.

    "A part of my ear was cut off. They cut my face. There's not a spot on my body that hasn't been beaten.
    "I couldn't tell who they were as it was always dark where they kept me but their accent was Russian."
    Mr Bulatov's disfigured and swollen face was replayed on TV screens throughout the day.

    Ukrainian opposition leaders rushed to the hospital, after police went there in what the opposition said was a move to arrest Mr Bulatov.
    Mr Bulatov is on a police wanted list on suspicion of taking part in "mass disorder", which carries a sentence of up to eight years in jail.
    Police said they went to the Kiev clinic where Mr Bulatov was being treated for his injuries but have since left after medical staff denied them access to Mr Bulatov.
    Opposition leaders, including boxer-turned-politician Vitaly Klitschko, said that police had intended to arrest him but had been thwarted by doctors who quickly called opposition leaders to the scene.

    "The police are trying to provoke further escalation of the conflict and increase tension in society. Instead of searching for those guilty for the disappearance and torture of one of the leaders of the automaidan," Mr Klitschko's UDAR (Punch) Party said in a statement. "The police are trying to make a criminal of him."
    Another opposition leader, far-right nationalist Oleh Tyahnibok, told reporters attemts to arrest Mr Bulatov had been thwarted by the quick response of doctors.

    He said opposition deputies would take shifts overnight to protect Mr Bulatov from the police.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 01-02-2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    US Diplomats are loosing there nerve. Its seems the Russian Secret Service (for lay people thats the FSB)
    have bugged their conversation. So much for trusting the Russians Govt with anything but they never listen
    to old wise Gen. Patton do they. We'll soon they will be taught lessons from the past they have ignored since
    the end of WWII. Those who know how Eastern Europe was abandoned at wars end knows as this
    conflict grows- there is no turning back. There are old hatreds there and for some the legacy of WWII
    is a fresh, not a old memory. The Ukraine has a very long memory. For those talking about
    a 'reset' in talks with Russia need a psychological examination or are working for the Russians..
    You cannot reward betrayal without punishment or you are ruled by weak not the strong.
    Nowonder Putin is running rings(pun) around Obama presently. They need to change strategy quickly
    or risk the whole situation loosing control completely.



    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-0...d-leaked-call/

    Quote-
    Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel stepped into a diplomatic row that began when a senior US official was secretly recorded insulting the European Union.
    Read: US diplomat apology after 'foul-mouthed leaked call'
    Victoria Nuland swore about the EU during a conversation with the US Ambassador to Ukraine.
    The exchange was apparently bugged and has since been posted online, with the Americans blaming the Russians.

    I think Merkel would have given her a little history lecture of what the American administration
    did under Roosevelt and created a problem in Eastern Europe was of their own making, Swaring
    is not going to fix the problem positive actions in helping Ukraine escape Russian clutches
    by aid to counter Russia's hidden influence in their country and revenge for Georgia...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
    The betrayal of the West to liberate countries from tyranny is now coming back to haunt them. Ignoring
    a problem does not make it go away rather than grow like a monster to one day devour you whole.

    http://www.newstimes.com/news/world/...on-5195815.php

    Quote-
    "We want to be a modern European country, live with a secure future," Klitschko, a former heavyweight boxing champion, told the crowd. "Without a fight there's no victory. Therefore, we must fight." Appearing later at a panel discussion alongside Klitschko, Kozhara pushed back against criticism of his government.

    "We think we have met all major demands from the opposition, but today is the time that the opposition shares also responsibility," he said. He added that "when the police (are) attacked with Molotov cocktails, this is not a peaceful protest; if ministries and the ... city mayor's office (are) occupied, that's also not a peaceful protest."

    Kerry told the conference that the crisis in Ukraine is about ordinary people fighting for the right to associate with the European Union. And he said Ukrainians have decided their futures don't have to be tied with just one country — an allusion to Russia.

    Lavrov used the occasion for renewed criticism of plans by the U.S. and NATO to install a missile defense system in Romania and Poland, even after the NATO chief said the project is "falsely described as offensive by Russia." Lavrov said Russia considers such a system "a part of the strategic arsenal of the United States" and said Moscow's main concern is "about capabilities, and not intentions." "When a nuclear shield is added to a nuclear sword, it is very tempting to use this offensive-defensive capability," he said.

    If I was head of the military commission representing Sen John Kerry on behalf of the US I would get the
    'reset' documents and tear them up in front of Lavorov face and say 'the game is over'. The Russians
    will then know it cannot get away with any more games. The Russians would then try to be apologenic and would
    then be very cautious of what it tries to get away with in the European Theatre as the whole
    of Europe will turn against them.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 09-02-2014 at 02:45 PM.

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    http://www.dw.de/us-russia-maneuver-...ure/a-17424834

    Quote-
    As the political crisis in Ukraine has escalated, EU and US efforts to support the opposition have gathered momentum. Washington is reportedly putting together a package of diplomatic carrots and sticks. US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland has said that Kyiv could receive US aid money, but only after it has implemented political reforms.
    Meanwhile, the US Congress and the White House are reportedly discussing targeted financial sanctions against the Ukrainian public figures allegedly responsible for violence. In a resolution which passed in a 381-2 vote, the House of Representatives on Monday expressed support for the "democratic wishes of the people" in Ukraine.
    According to Steven Pifer, former US ambassador to Ukraine, sanctions should also target President Viktor Yanukovych's inner-circle, which includes government officials and business people.
    "Rinat Akhmetov, the wealthiest oligarch, has been fairly close to Mr. Yanukovych," Pifer told DW. "I think it would be useful if Mr. Akhmetov was using his influence with President Yanukovych to encourage him to negotiate in a serious way to find a solution.

    "If there was some threat that there might be financial or travel sanctions on Mr. Akhmetov, that could be a useful lever," he said.
    So far, the EU has been reluctant to impose sanctions out of concern that punitive measures will only push Yanukovych further toward Moscow. In neighboring Belarus, for example, Western sanctions have done little to persuade strongman Alexander Lukashenko to reform his authoritarian regime.
    But Andrew Wilson, an expert on Ukraine with the European Council on Foreign Relations, disagrees with the analogy.
    "There aren't oligarchs in the same sense. You have a much more personal presidential system [in Belarus]," Wilson said. "Whereas in Ukraine you do have oligarchs, and you can hurt their interests."


    Finally somebody mention Belarus. Like Georgia a litlle country got mentioned.
    For those who know a bit of history here is something the father of Russian
    rocketry was actually a Ukrainian. Hopefully Ukrainians can decide their
    own destiny without the old America-Russia game again.

    and on a related note to all things Eastern Europe...

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/britain-...212-hvc1k.html

    Quote-
    London: The London High Court has quashed the British government's decision not to hold a public inquiry into the murder of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died in London in 2006 after being poisoned with a radioactive substance.
    The judgment means the government will have to reconsider the decision, a diplomatically sensitive one as a public inquiry could delve into the issue of whether Russia was involved in the killing. Moscow denies any hand in it.


    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/britain-...#ixzz2tACc5ZaB

    Im sure Mi6 is greatly disturbed FSB assasins roam their country with impunity.
    Hopefully Scotland Yard will get to the bottom of this case this time with
    a minimum of political interference. Like the Lockerbie case
    (some say it was actually the Iranians not the Libyans) the truth will eventually out.

    Quote-
    Viktor Yushchenko, anti-Russian candidate for the presidency of the Ukraine, is poisoned by Dioxin. Yushchenko’s chief of staff Oleg Ribachuk suggests that the poison used was a mycotoxin called T-2, also known as “Yellow Rain,” a Soviet-era substance which was reputedly used in Afghanistan as a chemical weapon. Miraculously, he survives the attack.

    ooh they can be ruthless.

    http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/putinmurders/
    Into the belly of the Kremlin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afvJPZ4vMEU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE5AERj_7Zs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmz3wGFQDkk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxHKqEquco
    The Russians were just as brutal to the Ukrainians when they later accused them of
    collaboration. Lose both ways. Ukraine has to be careful in how to deal with its past
    to help its future from not repeating it. For those who have dark pasts on both sides
    don't need to mention the needless suffering of ordinary people. A sad compilation
    of politics in the Ukraine from 1920 to present.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...lide-1.1689173

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvdB6EG844o
    I suppose there is a lighter side to everything. Mr Obama needs to open a can of 'Reagan Smash'.

    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 13-02-2014 at 06:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    EU sanctions on Ukraine after bloodbath? Army turned on its own people. Sanctions
    on the Ukraine seem imminent. Yankaovich is a war criminal and I hope he
    goes the way of Mussolini...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...sanctions.html

    Quote-
    Ukraine’s president Viktor Yanukovych and key opposition figures have announced a surprise truce that could bring an end to days of violence that have left 26 people dead and hundreds wounded.

    Opposition leaders said Mr Yanukovych agreed to postpone a planned assault on the opposition encampment in Kiev’s Independence Square after a meeting where they struck a deal on a last-minute ceasefire.

    "There’s good news: the planned storming and clearing of the square has been cancelled. There will now be a truce and the beginning of the negotiation process to stabilise the situation,” Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the leader of the Fatherland party and one of three main leaders of the EuroMaidan protesters, told reporters after the meeting.

    “We have received assurances from Yanukovych that there would be no assault on Maidan. Literally, it means a truce,” Vitaly Klitschko, another opposition leader who took part in the talks, said.

    On the eve of a visit by the foreign ministers of Germany, Poland and France, Mr Yanukovych confirmed the agreement of a truce and further talks in a statement on the presidential website, announcing “the start to negotiations with the aim of ending bloodshed, and stabilising the situation in the state in the interests of social peace”.

    Im sure there were 'russians' in the protest group as well. Hopefully there hunted down. I wonder what passports they have
    providing advice to the Ukrainian police perhaps? Taking down the state run properganda tv station would be next...
    All protestors are Nazis are they? Sounds too convenient when the police are the real nazis. I hope they find some Putin supporters on the inside
    and the psy-ops there doing. That way they could also prevent a Russian incursion...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/20/wo...hpw&rref=world

    Quote-
    Doubts about the influence of Russia were also shredded, as the Kremlin portrayed the protesters as American-backed “terrorists” and, in thinly coded messages, urged Mr. Yanukovych to crack down.

    burning a russian flag can do wonders for your self-esteem. Hungary salutes the freedom fighters in Ukraine down with the Russian govt meddling.
    Its about time they got some of their own medicine- and their supporters/enablers in the West now know their number is up- they too will be hunted down.
    If they take Putins side or not is up to them. Ukraine has been exploited by Russia for so long this vengeance is long overdue and justified. The West should
    start arming the rebels as sooner or later when the Russian military will be called in it will be a repeat of '56 maybe worse. Half-supporting
    a democracy could be a bad move by the EU and a chance by Russia to increase its influence in the East Europe back again.


    1956 revisited? The bullet and tank shells are still found in the old buildings in Budapest/Prague/Georgia recently the last time the Russians went on a murderous rampage.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/co...hed-by-moscow/
    Shows to most people now the Cold War is not only not over but back with a vengeance. Some people are so
    lucky living in democracies they take their freedom of speech for granted in some countries it worth dying for
    as they never had it in the first place...so they have nothing to lose but die like heroes- oneday the reign
    of terror of Putin will end..

    Quote-
    But that prospect was anathema to Moscow which, under Mr Putin, has adopted an increasingly nationalist approach in its dealings with former republics. Rather than allow countries like Georgia and Ukraine to remove themselves from Moscow's sphere of influence, the Russians have done everything in their power – including, in Georgia's case, the use of military force – to prevent these newly-independent states of pursuing their goal of adopting Western-style government based on the rule of law, rather than being governed by corrupt kleptocracies.
    In many ways Moscow's tactics seem to me like a re-run of the old Soviet tactic of crushing any hint of dissent in its former republics. First in Hungary in 1956, and then in Czechoslovakia in 1968, attempts by Hungarian and Czech revolutionaries to free themselves from the Stalinist yoke were crushed by brute force.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlPEB...eature=related
    If Russia moves its Iskanders anwhere except for Kalinigrad will it be watched closely by America.
    I hope Russia realises this. America invented it remember....you stole it.
    The Missile Shield may be for a purpose over Eastern Europe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K720_Iskander
    95% tests results I've heard good second results...(inside joke to my friends in Montana)
    Quote-
    On December 2013 Russia confirmed that the Iskander missile system now had been deployed in Western Military District, but not in Kaliningrad.[24]

    http://rt.com/op-edge/us-missile-shield-russia-361/
    Is that what your afraid of what we might turn 'on'. Remember no trucks moving about satellites have good eyes...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VA4W1wDMAk
    Looks like some people have forgotten. Russian media still tell the story very differently here like the story of the Kursk.

    I hope Washington realises the sacrifice of Eastern Europe and the letdown at the end of WWII.
    We thought the break-up of the Soviet Union was a matter of fact not just on paper.
    America might be a powerful country but it does not exorcise dictatorial power to
    the Canada or Mexico they run their own business around the world.
    The Evil Empire is back just under a new banner. If the West looses Russia will
    push it properganda arm and its military further. At the end of the Second World War
    there were many Ukrainan freedom fighters helping the Aliies through WWII.
    Looks like that memory was lost. Russia should not use its nuclear monopoly
    for territorial gain.

    Quote-
    Perhaps the most salient development today was the report that Russia’s spetsnaz (special forces) have been deployed by Putin to help put down what was once a peaceful protest movement, but now is seen as a mayhem of Molotov cocktails and riots. According to Tyzhden, a Ukrainian weekly, one such officer was “captured” by protestors and displayed before the Euromaidan masses today, his martial insignia of a double-headed eagle, proof to many, if proof were needed, of where he came from and who’s actually running the show in Kiev. (Toomas Hendrik Ilves, the president of Estonia, who knows something about Russia’s infiltration of its next-door neighbors, credited this report as plausible and tweeted a link to the Tyzhden article. The Russian embassy in Tallinn accused him of spreading “lying tweets”—before deleting the accusation.)

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-to-blame.html
    Special Forces come before a regular army does....and tank divisions..and helicopter gunships
    ooh and the fighter-bombers...like a previous small war in Georgia in 2008.

    Considering all the European nations who border Ukraine
    this makes a old problem more evident.

    I think some people have underestimated a disproportionate Russian response...
    http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/20/t...-already-free/
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Quote-
    With an official death toll for the day of 75 and several dozen Interior Ministry troops captured by protesters after a truce Wednesday night lasted only a few hours, shocked members of Yanukovych’s Party of Regions began deserting him during a hastily called extraordinary session of parliament. They joined with others in passing a resolution calling on the police to pull back and not to use firearms.

    A bigger desertion may be taking place in Moscow. President Vladimir Putin, who has steadfastly tried to bind Ukraine and Yanukovych to Russia with economic ties, talked with European leaders about the need to work with them and the United States to find a resolution to Ukraine’s unraveling.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...d88_story.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzujrVq-CC4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErJ6yN7wY0o
    Strange puppets speaking Russian. Was a great comic in its day till it was pulled off the air.
    I have a Russian friend doing the reading for me. To live under Putin would be true misery.

    Quote-
    "Elections in December are not enough. He has to leave now. Otherwise he could end up like Kadhafi or Ceausescu," said Oleh Bukoyenko, a ribbon with "Glory to the heroes" pinned to his chest.

    I remember when Ceausecu was lynched and all his ill gotten gains showed to the public who he theived from...nobody missed them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsRQP7TifME





    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/wo...next-move.html

    Quote-
    Mr. Putin’s envoy refused to sign the agreement mediated on Friday by three European foreign ministers to end two days of carnage in the capital, Kiev, only to have the agreement overtaken by a political upheaval that threatens to undercut Russia’s influence over any new government.
    The Kremlin’s spokesman, Dmitri S. Peskov, complained on Sunday that while Mr. Yanukovych had honored the terms of the agreement — which called for new elections and a return of constitutional powers to the Parliament — his political opponents had not. Instead, the Parliament has effectively seized power and is now rushing through an emboldened series of votes that have provoked rage among Russian lawmakers and commentators.

    “It’s a confusing situation,” Mr. Peskov said in a telephone interview from Sochi, where Mr. Putin attended the closing ceremony of the Olympic Games. “We have to figure out what we are facing there. Is it a coup or what?”

    The Russian Govt weaklings don't want to negotiate? I suppose that why the lost the Cold War last time...plenty of nukes not enough food...
    I suggest the Gen. Patton method for negotiating with the Russians its the only langauge that they understand.
    Like so if Putin wants to make a play on the Ukraine and try to destabilise Eastern Europe he will make destabilisation
    go both ways- right to the Kremlin itself- as we know Medvedev is a weak and insipid deputy
    who parrots what his leader says...and shows little ability to think for himself- though I suppose thats a major weakness of the
    Soviet system now is'nt it. Russia should be treated like North Korea- with suspicion...


    Quote-
    Russia said today it would not deal with those it said stole power in “an armed mutiny” in Ukraine, sending the strongest signal yet that Moscow does not want to be drawn into a bidding war with the West in its southern neighbour. Querying the legitimacy of the new pro-European authorities after the Ukrainian parliament’s removal of the Kremlin-backed president following months of unrest, prime minister Dmitry Medvedev said he saw no one to do business with in Kiev.
    He did not declare a $15-billion bailout for Ukraine dead, although its future is in question, but signalled that a deal which cut the price Ukraine pays for Russian gas had an expiry date and that any extension would have to be negotiated. With president Vladimir Putin still basking in the afterglow of Russia’s success at the Sochi Winter Olympics, it has been left to aides to address a crisis that has not turned out as he wanted and reduced Russian clout in Ukraine. Mr Putin’s silence about the fall of Viktor Yanukovich has been filled by allies’ accusations of betrayal in Ukraine, of a Western-orchestrated coup and suggestions that there could be a split or civil war in the ex-Soviet republic of 46 million.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...aine-1.1703146

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...e-cia/5805815/
    The CIA's failure in Georgia to make a sizable resistance to Russian military aggression there Im sure is not too easily forgotten....
    Monitoring Russian activity and by their Ukrainian enablers (and their friends overseas) will make sure the Western side of Ukraine is not another S.Osettia..
    Another job for the dirty tricks and cunning deeds dept...I suppose it did not anticipate a full scale invasion in the Middle of a Olympics.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/25/wo...rom-obama.html
    Instead of pressing the victory and pushing further into the Soviet Republics to hasten the collapse of Putin oligarchy Obama sits on his hands.
    Who the hell is advising him. A perfect oppotunity wasted and soon he will have blood on his hands as the price of failure will be high.
    Putin must be watching Obama with fascination as to somebody who wins a prize yet ignores its great value. Foolish. That Neville
    Chamberlain DNA again...and were cutting back our military as well when we should be doing the opposite. .. and may make
    others more aggressive on the world stage as result- who may see our political actions for being warlike. We'll be in a real ****storm then.
    Maybe this is a defining moment in politics as its returning to a more primal form of fear and intimidation and might is right.
    Soft power is just that hard power will crush you and leave you in the corner. Economists and diplomats are to blame here
    as they think money alone solves problems- rather than simply patching them over. The economist are weak as they cannot
    outfund Russia nor can diplomats can provide any hope to stop Russian aggression. The Iron Fist of Reagan days has been ignored.

    The EU may be funding the Ukraine bit its piss weak to stand up to Russia. Appeaement hard at work- subservience will be next.
    Looks like the EU failed in more ways than one- NATO is not pulling its weight either. Economists are no use to the military
    mind when your army can invade a country and take all its resources and SFA to the law and whatever you think.
    Shows the failure of Western Politics since the end of 1991 may make us lose in 2014. Win the war, lose the peace.
    Nice way of killing a enemy. Playing weak when your very much alive...

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...nightmare.html
    Quote-
    Since Sunday, Ukraine’s new, built-in-chaos government has been chasing its ex-President Viktor Yanukovych around the country. He might be in Crimea; there was a helicopter and a convoy of cars, and, as the Times noted, “he was believed to have access to at least one yacht that might ferry him out of Ukraine.” He hasn’t been found yet; nor has the white Pomeranian dog in whose company he was last seen as he was leaving his very large home. This is the man who, when the weekend began, had been in charge of the country and its military. The catalogue of vehicles in which he may have fled brought to mind the closely watched trains that, twenty years ago, carried almost two thousand strategic nuclear warheads out of Ukraine, then a new country. They were being sent to Russia to be destroyed. The deal that made that exodus happen wasn’t easy; it took American brokering and a lot of money, and the burned-out barricades in Kiev and the uncertainty about who’s in charge makes one profoundly grateful for it. Better a loose President than loose warheads.

    Yes political figures mean nothing loose nukes mean lots more. Still some nukes have dissapeared from 'that' stockpile...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INAlUGn0RYg
    Yes Chernobyl is in the Ukraine...Russia has been slow on the clean-up. Pripyat is a very sad place and one you cannot stay for very long.
    Now as a professional its not advisable to shoot guns when your drunk or stoned. May affect judgement, let alone aim.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pripyat

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26336032

    Quote-
    Raising the gas price or reducing the supply, seeking to deepen the insolvency of Kiev, or restricting imports from Ukraine can certainly exacerbate things for a new Ukrainian government.

    Well just a war waged, another way...

    Or maybe if I know how the Russians work they will make the Sevastapol seperatists attack Kiev
    backed EU and provoke a confrontation like in Georgia/South Ossettia in 2008...so the Russian
    Army can intervene. Good gameplan but I don't think it will work this time...

    especially truck and tank convoys near the border...

    Quote-
    Russian and Ossetian forces battled Georgian forces throughout South Ossetia for four days, the heaviest fighting taking place in Tskhinvali. On 9 August, Russian naval forces allegedly blockaded a part of the Georgian coast and landed marines on the Abkhaz coast.[59] The Georgian Navy attempted to intervene, but was defeated in a naval skirmish. Russian and Abkhaz forces opened a second front by attacking the Kodori Gorge, held by Georgia.[60] Georgian forces put up only minimal resistance, and Russian forces subsequently raided military bases in western Georgia. After five days of heavy fighting in South Ossetia, the Georgian forces retreated, enabling the Russians to enter uncontested Georgia and temporarily occupy the cities of Poti, Gori, Senaki, and Zugdidi.[61]
    Through mediation by the French presidency of the European Union, the parties reached a preliminary ceasefire agreement on 12 August, signed by Georgia on 15 August in Tbilisi and by Russia on 16 August in Moscow. Several weeks after signing the ceasefire agreement, Russia began pulling most of its troops out of uncontested Georgia. Russia established buffer zones around Abkhazia and South Ossetia and created checkpoints in Georgia's interior. These forces were eventually withdrawn from uncontested Georgia. However some Western officials insist the troops did not return to the line where they were stationed prior to the beginning of hostilities as described in the peace plan.[62][63] Russian forces remain stationed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia under bilateral agreements with the corresponding governments.[64]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%...litary_buildup

    Quote-
    Sergey Lavrov said that his country was not preparing for war but would retaliate against any attack.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_26/...-Germany-1908/
    If Russia was really worried about whats going on the German border perhaps it should explain why
    it should explain to the Western media why it withdrew from the Convention Forces Treaty in Europe
    and the arms race in Eastern Europe in 2007 just before the war in Georgia started.

    Be careful Russia a Operation Barbarossa II is what you wish for well- tell what happened when..when
    you Iskanders put in Kalinigrad maybe we can have Pershing II pointed at 'dead-hand' to Moscow.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...sion_by_Russia

    Quote-
    After Russia was not willing to support the US missile defense plans in Europe, Putin warned a "moratorium" on the treaty in his April 26, 2007 address. Then he raised most of his points for rewriting the treaty during the Extraordinary Conference of States Parties to the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe, held in Vienna on June 11–15 at Russia’s initiative.[12] As his requests were not met during this conference, Putin issued a decree intended to suspend the observance of its treaty obligations on July 14, 2007, effective 150 days later, stating that it was the result of "extraordinary circumstances (...) which affect the security of the Russian Federation and require immediate measures," and notified NATO and its members.[13][14] The suspension applies to the original CFE treaty, as well as to the follow-up agreements.[12]


    Birds of a feather- flock together.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...7396588.column
    Now I think it is also time to cut a KGB thug down to size after all the CFE is history was Russia doing. Thats no idle treaty.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 27-02-2014 at 09:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...


    The Russian airforce would not want to catch the Ukrainian air force on the ground...and turn it to twisted metal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_epfA20dOY
    The subs are out of their pens im sure.

    Russian tanks and aircraft exercise near the Ukrainian border.
    Waiting for a 'excuse' to protect Russian enclaves in the country
    towards the Crimea as well as Russian Naval Facilities there.
    Then there would be Russian black-ops to agitate a fight with
    Maidan in order to make a bombing raid over Kiev a reality
    just like in Tblisi.

    NATO is probably on full alert since Poland, Hungary
    Romania , Slovarkia as well as Bulgaria have interests in
    not letting a mass refugee crisis if Putin lies through
    his teeth again. In Eastern Europe you learn the term
    'double-speak 'after all Operation Barabarossa was only originally
    just a military exercise. The advantage of a military excercise
    is that your armed, fueled and ready to go if you
    were to get some last minute changes in course...
    well thats just the military element of surprise.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/wo...ref=world&_r=0

    A repeat of 2008?

    Quote-
    MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin ordered a surprise exercise of ground and air forces on Ukraine’s doorstep Wednesday, intending to demonstrate his country’s military preparedness at a time of heightened tensions with Europe and the United States over the turmoil gripping Russia’s western neighbor. The Obama administration said any Russian military intervention in Ukraine would be a costly and “grave mistake.”



    http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/54050...m#.Uw54JXWSxI4
    Useful idiots in the West. Tempting fate with the Russian Govt is rather dangerous. They have a tendancy to over-react.


    While people may question the rise of Slavic ultra-nationalism back in the Kremlin the Ukraine can fall...Maybe Russia wants to destroy America for the humiliation of 1991.
    Russia is still ready for a strike on the US Mainland. Subs and bombers and new nukes that can make the missile shield obsolete indicate Kerry trust in Russia is misguided like in 2008.
    In Russia after all KAL007 was the US fault and the Kursk sinking was by the US Navy so you can imagine all the hatred for the US-Nato and the Western World at large...
    the reset means nothing to Russia except for America to be asleep at the wheel.


    Quote-
    Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin welcomed the test, calling the new ICBM a “missile defense killer... Neither current nor future American missile defense systems will be able to prevent that missile from hitting a target dead on.”



    http://rt.com/news/missile-defense-k...prototype-411/
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/02...ilitary-reach/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_nationalism
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...create/281291/
    http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/nato-...atic-rhetoric/
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...edev-says.html
    http://www.euractiv.com/europes-east...ne-news-533803
    http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/20...ca-or-love-it/
    In my opinion the reset with Russia is dead and Buried.

    Quote-
    International tensions over the unfolding crisis in Ukraine have escalated dramatically after Vladimir Putin ordered an urgent test of combat readiness of the Russian military’s western and central command.

    The exercise, involving 150,000 of precisely those forces which are likely to be used for any intervention, and their reserves, came amid growing claims that the country faces the threat of breaking up, as protests and violent sectarian clashes continue.

    Quote-
    We must refrain from threats against each other," NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen was quoted by Stars and Stripes as saying at the Munich Security Conference. "The deployment of new offensive weapons has no place in a true strategic partnership."
    Late last year, the Russian military said it had fielded nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in the Western Military District -- an area that includes the Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave that borders NATO states Poland and Lithuania. Russian President Vladimir Putin shortly afterward said Iskander missiles were not being fielded in the Kaliningrad, though he left the door open on their possible future deployment if no resolution is reached with NATO over its missile defense ambitions.

    The commander of the Western Military District last month announced his district would be receiving a brigade of Iskander M ballistic missiles later in the year, though he did not specify exactly where they would be fielded, Voice of Russia reported.

    Moscow sees NATO's evolving missile shield as a threat to nuclear stability on the continent. The Kremlin repeatedly has demanded a binding pledge from the alliance that U.S. interceptors planned for fielding in Romania and Poland in the coming years will never be aimed at Russian strategic assets. Washington and NATO have responded with political assurances that the missile-defense system is focused on protecting against a possible attack from the Middle East.

    But domestic political stability is his principal concern, and Putin sees the United States as a threat to his sovereign rule. Anti-Americanism, at least to some extent, has been a staple of Russian political campaign rhetoric since the onset of the Putin era, but never like this.

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov discounted these assurances in remarks at the Munich forum.
    Rasmussen rebuked Russia for its recent fielding of ballistic missiles in its western territory.

    Quote-
    Russian mainstream press outlets, mostly controlled by the government, convey a rigid narrative about what the West (Europe and the United States) means to Russia. In the crudest terms, the narrative claims that the West is trying to undermine Russia by luring former Soviet states into its own sphere of influence. Broadcast by the national TV channels, it portrays United States as a competitive power.

    Quote-
    But now those propositions look highly dubious. Putin's latest campaign article, "Russia and the Changing World," makes clear that the so-called reset in U.S.-Russia relations is over, and that tough times lie ahead. Addressing his own question -- "Who undermines confidence?" -- Putin pointed at the United States and NATO, but especially at the Americans, who "have become obsessed with the idea of becoming absolutely invulnerable." Some may write off Putin's anti-American tone as campaign rhetoric, but it has become increasingly clear that his brash posture toward Washington reflects what he actually thinks about the United States and its foreign policy. In fact, Putin has long held these views.

    Quote-
    The exact lineage of Vympel is not known but the unit was formed in 1981 by the KGB Gen. Drozdov within the First Chief Directorate of the KGB, as a dedicated spetsnaz unit specialised in deep penetration, sabotage, universal direct and covert action, protection of Soviet embassies and espionage cell activation in case of war. Most of the Vympel operatives mastered two or three foreign languages since they were intended to act in foreign countries, deep behind enemy lines.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vympel
    Im sure Vympel would be very active in the Ukraine.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-army-...225-hvdo2.html
    http://www.npr.org/2012/10/12/162799...o-secure-nukes
    Is the US militaries two MTU strategy now in threat. This may lead to unforseen consequences...
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 27-02-2014 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in the Ukraine...

    Unless they want a repeat of the Bosnia-Serbia-Croatia war and the seperation
    of Yugoslavia and later on Czechoslovakia. Russia may unleash a regional war
    in Europe and even Serbia may also join. This could get very ugly not just in the
    Ukraine. The US Military is standling idly by like in 1999. Germany recognised
    Croatia and it was downhill from there. I think some American planners forget
    how fragile the region is...like the S.China sea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PUIQpAEAQ
    He tried to shock the Americans out of the complacency and failed. Looks like were repeating past failures.

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=6636,144879
    How the last war in Europe started in 1999.

    Two MTU strategy is in ruins. China & Russia are taking full advantage of it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-front_war

    http://euobserver.com/foreign/122948
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-ukraine.html

    Quote-
    “The mere fact of the timing when you consider what is going on in Ukraine and you see the sudden nature of the exercise would cause concern,” this official said. “From an intelligence perspective we don’t have any reason to think it’s more than military exercises."

    The assessment is based in part on the fact that not enough medical units have been ordered to accompany the Russian troops to the Ukrainian border to suggest preparation for war, according to one Congressional staffer who has seen intelligence on Russia. This source also said no signal intercepts have detected plans for an invasion.

    On Thursday, Secretary of State John Kerry acknowledged that he had been assured in conversations with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that Russia respected the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Nonetheless, Kerry is urging all sides to stand down. Earlier in the week, Kerry warned Russia's leader not to mistake the current conflict in the Ukraine for Rocky IV, the 1985 movie about a steroid-addled Soviet boxer who is eventually defeated by the American, Rocky Balboa.

    “From an intelligence perspective we don’t have any reason to think it’s more than military exercises.”

    “We believe that everybody now needs to step back and avoid any kind of provocations,” Kerry told reporters in Washington Thursday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ukraine-border
    Nobody is mentioning the cyber-war in the background. Like what Russia did to Estonia once.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...0eb_story.html

    Quote-
    “Regional conflicts begin this way,” said Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, calling the confrontation “a very dangerous game.”

    Russia has pledged to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. But the dispatch of Russian fighter jets Thursday to patrol borders and drills by some 150,000 Russian troops — almost the entirety of its force in the western part of the country — signaled strong determination not to lose Ukraine to the West.

    http://tbo.com/list/news-columns-sot...aine-20140225/
    Or maybe my European mind says the Ukraine is doomed as the storyline does seem familar- No US military support means the Russians will crush them like ants.
    The Berlin Airlift saved the German sector but sadly no Military thinking can offer apart from intel risking their lives for nothing over there. I wonder if they
    ever will publish how many NATO personnel were killed in Gerogia in 2008 who were advisors to the Georgian army at the time. Has the Cold War
    ended? That depends on if your American or Russian. A new iron curtain is decending over Eastern Europe again.

    Quote-
    The revolt was so complete the Soviets promised to negotiate peace. In mid-November, less than two weeks later, Soviet tanks and troops moved into Hungary. Thousands of Hungarians were killed and the country disappeared back behind the Iron Curtain until the collapse of the Soviet Union more than three decades later.

    http://tbo.com/list/news-columns-sot...aine-20140225/

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...a-anger-flares
    The Kamikaze Parliament how long it lasts? As the Russian army if their honest enough to tell you...

    Quote-
    “The fate of all the members of this cabinet is the fate of a political kamikaze,” Yatsenyuk said on his website after getting the support of protesters on Feb. 26. “The treasury is empty, pensions haven’t been paid in full for more than a month, gold and foreign currency reserves have been robbed.”



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmuyxY5Ev54
    If you were reading youtube posts from Russians threatening Europe you'd think there about to invade the Fulda Gap again and nuke us too.
    150,000 troops could quite easily do the job. NATO armed forces are a shadow of their Cold War strength.
    Russia must have a closed society like China to the outside world probably explains the mentality. The internet has only brought
    out that aggression.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...s-2013-11?IR=T
    and in real life.

    http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/11...itary-decision
    Being a pacifist is useless if people want you dead. Russia is using the same tactics on Germany like China is using over Japan.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 01-03-2014 at 01:09 PM.

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