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Thread: No F-22 for Australia

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    have a chat to anybody who works on the airbusses all say the same thing there death traps, mabey the us govenment listened to the mechanic's who worked on it.
    some time's it ant about the best air craft its the one that will get you come every time
    would be interesting to see who supplys the electronics for the airbus? china?

    i still think a f15 would be a far better product for australian air force's as its capable of both bomber and air supority and does both mighty well.
    upgrade it 5th gen equipment or possible go 6th gen drone with no fuel consuming thrust vectoring we know the airframe can take it with poliet back on the ground no reason why you couldent out turn a f22

    f22 would require ground attack plane as well mabey a warthog?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    have a chat to anybody who works on the airbusses all say the same thing there death traps, mabey the us govenment listened to the mechanic's who worked on it.
    some time's it ant about the best air craft its the one that will get you come every time
    would be interesting to see who supplys the electronics for the airbus? china?

    i still think a f15 would be a far better product for australian air force's as its capable of both bomber and air supority and does both mighty well.
    upgrade it 5th gen equipment or possible go 6th gen drone with no fuel consuming thrust vectoring we know the airframe can take it with poliet back on the ground no reason why you couldent out turn a f22

    f22 would require ground attack plane as well mabey a warthog?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonsy View Post
    have a chat to anybody who works on the airbusses all say the same thing there death traps, mabey the us govenment listened to the mechanic's who worked on it.
    some time's it ant about the best air craft its the one that will get you come every time
    would be interesting to see who supplys the electronics for the airbus? china?

    i still think a f15 would be a far better product for australian air force's as its capable of both bomber and air supority and does both mighty well.
    upgrade it 5th gen equipment or possible go 6th gen drone with no fuel consuming thrust vectoring we know the airframe can take it with poliet back on the ground no reason why you couldent out turn a f22

    f22 would require ground attack plane as well mabey a warthog?
    Silent Eagle is already in Stage II of development. Probably beat
    the JSF now by a considerable margin...no engine test/s or
    changes yet necessary- rofl They should have a fly-off
    to see who wins. They would probably force the F-15
    to turn off one of its engines so the fights fair. 104-0 against
    a outsider-wish em the best. The F-15 was built on the lessons
    of the Air war over Vietnam and as by specification the only plane
    ever to built as a dogfighter/air superiority. The F-22 was only a
    stealthy f-15 after all. Interesting to see the RCS and Radar comparisons
    especially with newer 'battle-tested' avionics compared to a junker.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npk9F41rGw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPDQ8...eature=related
    Last years Red Flag and the Eagle did not do a bad job at all- includes Su-30 and Rafale...ROKAF and Aggressors sharpen their skills...

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...d-a149a62bf557

    Quote-
    Dr Wiechmann's Magic Vanishing Paint

    a bit of a inside joke by Lockheed.

    the flying guppy says Flanker attack.


    Bill Sweetman has authored over 30 books on military aircraft, and now edits Defense Technology International, a monthly magazine put out by Aviation Week. Few journalists today know more about tactical aircraft. And few have been more critical of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the jet that’s eventually supposed to replace as much as 95% of combat planes. “The program is no longer at risk of failure,” he wrote in March on Aviation Week’s defense blog, Ares. “It has already failed.”

    The Air Force isn’t alone in its woes, Cordesman writes. The entire "U.S. defense procurement system has effectively become a liar‘s contest in terms of projected costs, risk, performance, and delivery schedules. Effective leadership is lacking in any of these areas." But the air service is suffering the worst, he adds, because it has "no meaningful public strategy.

    Quote-
    Company officials reveal that they have completed two weeks of radar cross section testing on the F-15 Silent Eagle prototype.
    The trials, which employed various candidate stealthy coatings, took place last August and September, according to Mark Bass, vice president of F-15s for Boeing. Company officials have selected the optimum coating and say that the RCS testing yielded desired performance. Specifics on the coating and the RCS numbers was not provided.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener.../F35B02068.xml
    My favorite plane- the flying guppy.


    Quote-
    The F-35A being towed to its inauguration ceremony on 7 July 2006
    j.k- could it not get there under its own power.

    IN the looks contest- the f35 is one ugly mole...you what they say about aerodynamics- you either have it or not

    Quote-
    We had completed all the tests except the most hazardous maneuvers-the high-speed dives that are required of all aircraft for airworthiness certification.
    http://www.allaboutguppys.com/sg/afmsg/afmsg1.htm

    Man the j/k emails I've been getting about the JSF amount it to being to most momentous failure since Laurel and Hardy took over the defense budget
    to build such a multi-role failure in more ways than air, ground and sea could single engine overweight un-aerodynamic, unstealthy, IR oven, unreliable krudbucket could crash into.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3cvUuRQtSc
    Meanwhile back at Lockheed HQ- sorry Lyonsy could not help it.

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...-lockheed-jet/
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ys/#more-25166
    Continuing crappy lame excuses from Lockheed from 'Project Failure'. I think in future years
    this will be a textbook example of how not do a aerospace project compared to
    the Blackbird one...too little too late/ Lockheed should instead sell Vacuum cleaners
    that suck up money.


    Pretty much how Id modernise my F-15, canted tails, thrust vectoring 3d ones like on F-16VISTA and
    stealth nozzles to frustrate IR locks...and a full glass touchscreen cockpit to replace all those
    dials and some firefox thought controlled whatevers...
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 27-05-2013 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-CRI...eature=related
    The Su-30 pilots did not like knowing the weaknesses of their planes.
    O well. The F-22 and whats in its snozz is enough to worry about.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNie0...eature=related
    The Indian CO was not game to foot the interview. Probably right about
    the engine problems then...When you consider how harsh some Commanders
    like myself and Agressors treat our own pilots for screw ups- these guys
    seem incapable of taking critcism. Espcially after the USAF 'hat in hands'
    with the Indian AF back in 2006- minus AMRAAM, JCHMS, IRst and jamming
    turned off..and rookies in them as well!

    Quote-
    TVC is great, but it doesn't negate the laws of physics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=357fm...eature=related
    AESA equipped -C's with F-22s?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reVZ9...eature=related
    Borrowing somebodies toys.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_yF...eature=related
    Don't go into a mega power dive like the f86 did....
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 08-10-2010 at 08:22 PM.



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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Chinese stealth fighter takes to the skies. Somebody has some money to throw in some R&D.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...military-power
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html
    Quote-
    A photograph of what is reported to be a new Chinese stealth fighter and "carrier-killer" missile has prompted concerns that a tilt in the balance of military power in the western Pacific towards China may come sooner than expected.

    The emergence of the hi-tech weaponry - which would make it more difficult for the US navy and air force to project power close to Taiwan and elsewhere on China's coastline - comes at a politically sensitive time. Later this month, President Barack Obama and his Chinese counterpart, Hu Jintao, will hold a summit in Washington aimed at patching up their differences after a niggling year in bilateral relations.

    The photograph, of what appears to be a prototype J-20 jet undergoing runway tests, has been circulating on the internet since last week, fuelling speculation that China's fifth-generation fighter may fly ahead of forecast.

    The defence ministry has yet to comment on the image, which seems to have been shot from long-distance near the Chengdu aircraft design institute.

    Like the Mig25 and numerous tests and how long it took to get info- it will take a while for info to surface on the J-20.
    The J-10 is more in the F-15/F-22 class than the JSF as its twin-engined and not underpowered either. This is probably the biggest
    technological coup for the East since the Mitsubishi Zero appeared over the skies in 1941...

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...-1225982584861
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 26-02-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Personally I don't have the slightest issue with this.

    Throughout History China has been invaded by opportunistic neighbours.
    Now its 'Cherry' is the ripest, and some in the region are flexing muscle.
    China is no threat to Australia as long as we do not threaten them - we are an important trading partner.

    If the US, or UK had developed such a plane we would say "Good on 'em". .... so


    Good on 'em !

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoFG View Post
    Personally I don't have the slightest issue with this.

    Throughout History China has been invaded by opportunistic neighbours.
    Now its 'Cherry' is the ripest, and some in the region are flexing muscle.
    China is no threat to Australia as long as we do not threaten them - we are an important trading partner.

    If the US, or UK had developed such a plane we would say "Good on 'em". .... so


    Good on 'em !
    Do you remember Europe during the 80's with the Showdown between the MX and the SS-20's? The same scenario is appearing in SE Asia. China has invaded Vietnam(so much for being friends), involved in a territorial dispute over
    the Spratleys,Japanese ongoing tensions, Threatened to Invade Taiwan on numerous occasions and supports the North Korean regime for its own ends. Arms the Taliban and AlQuida with weapons and supports Pakistani destabilization of Central Asia as well. Only recently in one of the Wikileaks Australia was told by China 'suffer the consequences' in a recent defense white paper. China is behaving to Australia like Germany was to Poland saying we have a bigger military than you and we can crush you like ants-whenever we feel like. Too bad China's military has not seen action since the last Korean War. Selling nuclear weapons secrets to N.Korea, Pakistan and anybody else who hates America. China like Japan lacks resources- so China
    don't bite of the hand that fuels you...we can sell the stuff to the Yanks only if we wanted...I smell a big arms race brewing.

    China's government is cunning but its arrogance may sever their own head with
    the people their arming and the CIA's old term of 'blowback'. Im sure somebodies
    cooking something in the background to prevent China and the US Navy Fleets from
    colliding into a major war in the area...or if this situation keeps up who knows where
    things could end up. You don't build carrier killing missiles unless you fear a particular
    navy....

    I have no teeth to saw with the Chinese people but the Chinese leadership has
    the same aspirations as Nazi Germany did. The stealth plane looks like a rip-off
    of the PAK-FA anyway.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p07Ew...eature=related
    Late Christmas present- but Santa Arrives in style- no special effects here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQacH...eature=related
    Notice the 1 minute spacing between jets to avoid FOD- a return joke....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3c5J...eature=related
    The Ninjas in Action- excellent 2 on 2. Playing the old game of 'where did he go???'
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 12-01-2011 at 07:56 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Well we know everything they copy is rubbish.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Looks nicer than the not so secret F/A 37... Americans lol. They have watched too many John wayne movies. They do a big photo shoot of their three big carriers. And have a T/S plane on one of it's decks lol. And the USS New York. lol omg.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by FG40 View Post
    Well we know everything they copy is rubbish.
    It reminds me of the 60's when all a pilot needed was a bigger and more powerful engine. Then high speed SAMs came along and more nimble jets as rivals. Maneaverability was next til SAMs and AAM's developed proximity fuses...Now Stealth is much the same till you pick up something in your radar thats trying to jam the crap out of everything or a funny object on the RWR or artifact in the scope- a good radar can reduce stealth? Maybe the F-18 Growler showed that...F-22 is more of a 'night fighter' thats avoids conflict and I think is the reason
    why in the end it did not replace the F-15 but rather used them in a 'team role'.

    As soon as you turn on your radar you attract attention stealth or not. Passive radar (track and scanning targets without AWACS help??) is good but as its much more that if you can smell trouble in your IR...and how sensitive it can be. If PAK-FA Stealth is racing toward you with reheat well...

    A pissed off F-15 pilot with a load of Fox3s and a New AESA stage 3 radar should take care of 'stealth planes'. Dodge the MRM's, squirrel through the IR' seekers and go into guns range where stealth cannot run and hide. Take the fight in vertical till aerodynamics and pilot skill will sort whos flaming wreckage.

    Or pull so many G's to see how well their planes are bolted together till their wings rip off...
    no need for missiles or guns then- he he...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cvUCVeBAg
    Somebody uses the tailhook for a very short landing.

    http://warnerrobinspatriot.com/view/...e-in-the-hole?
    The backbone only gets stronger. While the JSF faces the axe from overbudget, single engined underacheiving though hopelessly overrated Lockmart rubbish. JSF-The F-104 revisted...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5nzGuYr96U
    The F-104 and the problem with engines. The reason why the F-4 succeeded in the Century Series. Stresses on the wings as well
    as flying at low speed...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJtTY...eature=related
    The problem with single engined jets is no other engine to back you up

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxdZI...sh+div-1r-8-HM
    Wheres the brakes Jim? The German Nickname was the 'flying coffin'.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI8ag...eature=related
    Fast but had problems slowing down.

    Quote-
    Over the course of the aircraft's lifespan in service, some 110 were lost to accidents, earning the CF-104 the nickname of "Widowmaker" or "Lawn Dart" in the air force.

    Quote-
    Note: DefenseReview has been informed by an aerospace insider that an even lower-observable/stealthier F-15 than the Silent Eagle was flown across the continental United States without detection by radar during the 1980’s, and that it’s possible to make an F-15 just as low-observable/stealthy as an F-22. Since we only have one source and no confirmation or documentation on this ’80’s-era low-observable F-15, we have to consider it as an unconfirmed/unverified report for now, no matter how trustworthy our source is (but this source is very trustworthy). If anyone out there has any more information on this unconfirmed low-observable F-15 project, we’d love to hear from you on it.

    Its in a Hangar somewhere...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcSjq...eature=related
    The TSR-2 and how it was better than the -111 and it was scrapped due to McNamara scandal and politics. Politics
    should kill the JSF the way things are going.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wE4G_BxlyOk
    While I agree that Russian and Chinese technology has advanced. Jammer systems and 'hacker' units are now being
    fielded to counter 4th and 5th generation SAM systems. Also putting supercruise engines in a future F-15 (which can already Cobra or even STOL as the equipment has been available since the 90's), BAe 5TH Generation ECMsystems and new AAMs should fill the parity). Since th JSF is actually rangewise inferior to the F-15, performance inferior and space limited for updates (and copyright restrictions for local AF development) its the reason why the F-22 should be offered as export or the Super F-15 thats been
    waiting for development since the 90's with Stealth Coatings and Next Gen ECM, Thrust Vectoring and STOL for road operations...
    It never got built due to the money wasted by Lockheed on the F-22.

    The Su series is as old as the F-15 really so the F-15 needs a update and then scrap the JSF and export the F-22.
    2009's Red Flag showed the SU series maneuverability is overrated..... And Boeing unlike Lockhheed is not going to dead end itself on obsolete 5th Generation were already moving to the 6th. The JSF is a waste of money. More money for Silent Eagle and a F-22 for export should cover gaps. Otherwise let other manufacturers offer their wares. Calling Britain and France 'enemies' is offensive
    as well. We have also lost allot of our technology due to spies, espionage and traitors something the presentation has failed
    to mention as its always funny when we develop something new somebody else gets the idea as well.

    http://www.defensereview.com/f-22-ra...iew-weighs-in/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
    Operation Orchard. Its sort of a 'lie' that 4th Generation is obsolete when you consider all the Russians/Chinese do is what
    we should be doing, bolting on new equipment to make up for shortfalls. They Jammed and Hacked their
    way through the SAMs so they were blinded till the bombs arrived.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC7Ex...eature=related
    The flying death ray.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQQA6NOC53Y
    What happens on single engines. Huge save though....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOwcz...eature=channel
    The jet that could strike China or North Korea. The JSF cannot.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 16-01-2011 at 01:42 PM.

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    Forum Veteran Lyonsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    america has been developing the F15 since its introductio many are on here.
    and id say they have worked out how to mass produce and refit old air frames with the updated gear.

    but why update something before its needed, really the f15 with well trained piliots can match any aircraft out there now.
    they have the smoke and mirrors program with the jsf mabey the budget for that is realy going into the f15 or f22 ? add to that most new planes have followed the f22/jsf design look mabey its trick by america to slow or stall development of other aircraft esp copy's while they try and work out how it works the yanks know it dont but have there trump card all ready.
    leave the f22 as american only give it a fabled allmost mythical repuation that no pilots will wanna fight against it use it to round up the birds for the f15's to slaughter

    can a missile pull as many g's as a f15 in a turn ? mabey the f15's can simply dystroy missiles by out turning them lol


    the only aircraft not copyed has been the f15 is it too hard to copy ????


    word on the super hornet's better then expected
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 16-01-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/01/old-school-jet/
    The loyal girlfriend- Your right Lyonsy the F-15 is being turned into a J-20 match.
    You only have to be on 'parity' after all as the rest is always 'work in progress'...

    Quote-
    No, the Pentagon won’t be buying more F-22 Raptors from Lockheed Martin. Instead, the U.S. military’s main flying branch has turned to an older jet that, with upgrades, could prove to be an even better J-20-killer than the newer, more expensive F-22. That’s right: the Boeing F-15 Eagle, one of the stars of the 1991 Gulf War, is quickly shaping up as America’s main countermeasure to China’s new fighter for the next 20 years.

    The Air Force is working on new tactics to blend the F-15s and F-22s into a single team. As currently envisioned, the F-15s would fly with extra fuel tanks and AMRAAM missiles and with radars blaring, while the F-22s, carrying less gas and fewer missiles, would turn off their radar and sneak up on the enemy for ninja-style jabs. “Our objective is to fly in front with the F-22s, and have the persistence to stay there while the [F-22s] are conducting their [low-observable] attack,” Maj. Todd Giggy, an F-15 pilot, told Aviation Week.

    Quote-
    A specially modified F-15A Eagle known as the "Streak Eagle" was able to outclimb a Saturn V Moon Rocket to almost 60,000 feet. This same aircraft flew to 98,430 feet (30,000 meters) in 207.80 seconds (less than 3 minutes and 30 seconds).

    So your regular model is pretty quick too. Shame you cannot take a F-15 into orbit. One day I suppose.

    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 13-08-2011 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    i think this says it all

    Col. Gerald Swift, the Air Force’s top F-15 maintainer. “Right now, there is nothing life-limiting on the F-15. It is a very well-designed platform.

    This teaming will get a big boost starting in 2014, when the Air Force finally installs secure data links on the F-22, allowing it to covertly swap targeting info with other planes. Even then, the F-15 will have a better radar and more weapons and endurance, making it the Pentagon’s preferred J-20-killer — and the biggest reason why the United States hasn’t yet lost control of the airspace over the Pacific

    sometimes the best radar sig is not the smallest but the biggest kinda like a superheavy weight turning up at a light weights title.
    then they know your there and ready to do business to take names kick ars and you better hope your entire missle load does some damage cause it has more missiles a better radar the best ability in the world to sustiain damage and continue not only flying but fighting if required, and who needs thrust vectoring when you can turn at g's that will have the wings fall off other aircraft.

    i think the f22 has taught america a lesson when it dog fighted a f18s/h ef and lost you cant hide when the radar is strong enough
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by FG40 View Post
    Well we know everything they copy is rubbish.
    That is a nice ambiguous statement -is it that they only copy things that are rubbish to start with or when they copy it there products turns out to be rubbish. Chinese factories can and do put out some amazing stuff. We don't get to see it as buyers here always want the cheapest not the best. I have seen gears that were cut in Guangzhou that were world class. You will find a few FIA GT Lamborghinis with Chinese replacement gears in them. You see some interesting stuff when you spend some time in Chengdu, where the J20 is being developed.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by chinamonty View Post
    That is a nice ambiguous statement -is it that they only copy things that are rubbish to start with or when they copy it there products turns out to be rubbish. Chinese factories can and do put out some amazing stuff. We don't get to see it as buyers here always want the cheapest not the best. I have seen gears that were cut in Guangzhou that were world class. You will find a few FIA GT Lamborghinis with Chinese replacement gears in them. You see some interesting stuff when you spend some time in Chengdu, where the J20 is being developed.
    I repect a rival as much as I like to know 'how they work' Chinamonty. As long
    as they don't get any ideas from previous Chinese emperors who will then worry
    what new toys China has...

    China has a 'alliance' with Russia- like Germany had a 'alliance' with Russia before
    a particular war started. Lets get back to the point. The J-20 is a brilliant display
    of what Chinese industry can get up to when nobody points a camera at it or sends
    spies to 'see how the thing works'. Over the years they have done much of the same
    to glean secrets of the -F-15/F-22 and the JSF which has been heavily 'compromised'.
    Im not doubting China can make 'on-par' parts however it still imports Russian
    engines on its top tier jets- SU-27-J-10 and J20 as they have yet to master
    the art of building a tough, reliable and durable engine that can go the distance.
    If you go back far enough you will know the Russians got the idea of how
    to build a good turbojet from the British Nene turbojet sent to them at the end of WWII,
    then also the nuke secrets got leaked and after that the world was never the same now
    was it? Now in 2011 we are in a age of 'dangerous proliferation' of weaponry of all
    types all over the world to threaten not only the balance of power but also geo-political
    issues which have only been minor threatening to drag 'bigger countries' in...

    The Chinese have made leaps and bounds over electronics- though were near a breakthrough in ECM, Active Jamming, DFCM jamming ourselves...

    Im more worried about the Russian 5th Gen ABM/SAM system that is already
    'anti-stealth' capable and they would not have worked how to track the stealth
    if we did'nt have a number of moles in the military establishment....and the loss
    of a particular F-117 over Serbia in 1999....Im sure Russian military engineers
    would be over it like a man flush with cash just back from the FPV dealership...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlalH...eature=related
    Id prefer no music but planes fly they must fly with integrity otherwise...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTI5etjTniU
    He was flying below 'safe' flying height and when things go wrong problems get multiplied the results then alas are clear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgoDi...D5626CE0E2471D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqtF6...eature=related
    Then lower you fly hard deck here must have been 50-100ft and low than that...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOT4Q...eature=related
    Failing to pull up can be a recipe for death. Both engines fail?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWdpw...eature=related
    As a general rule. Wartime flying maneuvers gone wrong are lethal.

    Quote-
    On June 24, 2005, a military court sentenced pilot Volodymyr Toponar and co-pilot Yuriy Yegorov to fourteen and eight years in prison, respectively. The court found the two pilots and three other military officials guilty of failing to follow orders, negligence and violating flight rules. Two of the three officials were sentenced to up to six years in prison, and the last official received up to four years
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 03-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    No Fly Zone over Libya?

    Looks like British Eurofighters are going up against Su-27 planes
    flown by foreign mercenaries? Send in the F-15 and F-22 pilots
    as well..just in case. Since there are no F-22's in USAFEs inventory
    the black tails will just go instead.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0308/libya.html
    http://kbgtestblog.blogspot.com/2011...pilots-on.html
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ority-gap.html
    Quote-
    The military’s top fighter jets – which have yet to be used in an operational role involving conflict overseas – may be called on to help police the skies over the conflict-scarred nation after Prime Minister David Cameron said a no-fly zone over the country should be considered.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f07vt...eature=related
    Has the S-400/S-500 learned the secrets of stealth. O well I suppose next we will have planes
    that are not only invisible to radar but invisible to sight..so the AAA has a harder time.
    Maybe this is all the plasma stealth rumours abound.

    Looks like the Sec of Defense saying that the days of fighter pilots was dead and UAV's
    are the future sound now rather foolish. Shooting down UAV's or AAV's is like killing baby seals
    as there defensive suites and performance and programming limitations that would make
    it a turkey shoot. Talk about saying all the airforce was good for...

    Looks like Gen Patton is having a laugh-
    It is very easy for ignorant people to think that success in war may be gained by the use of some wonderful invention rather than by hard fighting and superior leadership."- General George Patton

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-kN...eature=related
    Its time guys to get real wings as computers suck. Even some of Taliban think so...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82JDJ...eature=related
    Get another cup of coffee or a soft drink and bag of chips.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFDuBWuWME
    Russian Mig29 blows Georgian UAV into little bits.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nch-press.html
    Qaddafi also nearly bought Rafales. Now that would be interesting...No wonder France was embarrassed.

    http://www.rferl.org/content/libya_q...e/2331265.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgqDT2mlENo
    Last time Libya got attacked was back in 1986.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 01-08-2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    F-22- Pilot. I've ridden her
    Lockheed Salesman- Yes you have.
    F-22 Pilot- Yep she don't work no more.
    Lockheed Salesman- Dang
    F-22 Pilot- What does that mean for those brave F-15 pilots?
    Lockheed Salesman- Picking up the slack
    F-22 Pilot- How long to get her fixed?
    Lockheed Salesman- Dunno
    F-22 Pilot- WTF.
    Lockheed Salesman- speechless.
    F-22 Pilot- Stuff this crap. Im transfering
    Lockheed Salesman- Where
    F-22 Pilot- To a aircraft that has not been grounded.
    Lockheed Salesman- What do you mean?
    F-22 Pilot- F-15.
    Lockeed Salesman- Dang.

    Quote-
    “The guys are getting antsy,” Lt. Col. Jason Hinds, director of operations for the 27th Fighter Squadron, told the Daily Press of Newport News, Virginia, last month.
    Time in the simulator doesn’t relieve the stir-craziness. For one thing, it doesn’t resolve the pilots’ currency issues, Ferrau notes in an e-mail. Unlike commercial pilots, Air Force fighter jocks can’t use simulated takeoffs and landings to keep them current.

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...fighter-jocks/



    F-22s grounded again. So are JSF's. Epic Fail Lockheed.
    Nearly kill Yeager and now frontline pilots have to put up with this crap.
    What would Kelly Johnson think. Blackbird on time and on budget.
    JSF off time and 'space' and the F-22 what a bucket of bolts!
    Maybe those Russian and Chinese stealth tag are high maintenance as well.
    Car'nt win 'em all.

    http://defensetech.org/2011/05/06/f-...-indefinitely/
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15547.html

    Quote-
    So the F-22 Raptor fleet has been grounded by Air Combat Command boss Gen. Robert Fraser due to problems with the aircraft’s oxygen generating system, the same flaw that has kept the jets restricted to flights under 25,000 feet since January. The system has been under investigation since shortly after the late November crash of an F-22 in Alaska. The total grounding was apparently due to numerous reports of pilots suffering from a lack of oxygen while flying the jet since the restriction was put in place. It should be noted that at 25,000 feet its almost impossible for an unacclimatized person to breathe normally. Capping flights at that altitude would theoretically allow a pilot to more quickly dive to a lower altitude where he could breathe without the oxygen system’s help. The jets have been gounded indefinitely until the problem is solved, according to numerous reports. If they’ve been looking at this since November, it has to be a pretty tricky problem. You can also be sure that speculation will emerge that problems with the oxygen generator system played a role in the Air Force’s much-discussed decision to keep the F-22s out of the fight in Libya.

    looks like the F-15s are picking up the slack yet again. Yawn.


    Quote-
    At ground level humans breathe air with a 21% oxygen concentration in order to oxygenate the bloodstream and, hence, sustain life. The pressure exerted by the oxygen component of air is termed the Partial Pressure of Oxygen (PPO2). It becomes progressively more difficult for humans to take in oxygen as PPO2 decreases in direct proportion to air pressure with increasing altitude. At higher altitudes this will lead to insufficient oxygen being present in the bloodstream, a condition known as hypoxia, and eventually death. The OBOGS is controlled by a solid state monitor/controller that monitors the PPO2 level of the OBOGS product gas, and adjusts the cycling of the beds to produce the desired level of oxygen concentration. To prevent hypoxia in military aircrew it is necessary, as a rule of thumb, to maintain the minimum of PPO2 to the equivalent of altitudes in the range 8,000 feet to 10,000 feet in order to perform normal levels of work."

    = dead pilot. fighter pilots version of the bends.

    Its kind of good Australia never got the F-22. The grounding would sure make groundcrew cranky
    Maybe its the choice for the old 'reliable' than the F-22 and now soon the JSF is.
    Well Europe can get choice between the SilentEagle, Gripen and Eurofighter for choice.
    Goes to show in the airplane business the plane with the most tricks does
    not win its like Yeager says- the pilot maketh the machine.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cq7hf4ylvY
    Thats why the JSF failed single engine. The F-15 has two. Case Closed.[/B]

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226113388544
    The single engined deathtrap the F35 also gets grounded. Owned.

    Quote-
    THE controversial F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has hit another hurdle with the fleet of 20 test planes grounded because of a serious mechanical failure.

    That could cause the plane to do what....looks like Lockheed Martin is finished. I wreckon Lockheed's share are a 'sell' option to
    me and for Boeing.....

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...d-testing.html
    Like I said before the Smithsonian happy to buy one and since the Chinese have copied 30% of the plane we may as well
    sell the rest to them...rofl.

    http://gbstechnews.com/2011/05/29/ar...martin-hacked/
    I guarantee the F35 will never fly in Australia(except in a brochure) may as well buy SuperHornets and SilentEagles instead
    or as I said before convert the Hornets into Growlers and Have F-15SE that can reach all the way
    to North Korea if necessary. The tankers are there already.

    Quote-
    The Lockheed Martin F-35 has been cleared to resume ground operations, but no flight tests are allowed until safety investigators determine what caused a control valve to malfunction on 2 August.

    The decision extended an eight-day-old grounding of the 20 flyable F-35s, but allows for some development tests to continue on the ground.

    The joint programme office halted all F-35 testing on 2 August, after a control valve in the Honeywell integrated power package (IPP) malfunctioned during a routine ground test involving conventional take-off and landing test aircraft AF-4.

    The valve allows the IPP to switch its power source from combusted air to bleed-air after it has started up the F-35's propulsion system.

    Highly compressed air built up after the valve failed to open, producing what was described as an "explosive event" by one F-35 programme official, who was quoted in Australian Aviation magazine.

    How does it feel to be victorious in the end? Nothing. Not even I told you so. I knew it already. Don't ask.

    Since the JSF has been scrapped. How about something with a 104-0 record. only 100 million bucks.(the JSF was
    at 193 million at last look ) Still cheaper than JSF and I throw a pair a kitchen knives.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn6nx...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViF5C...eature=related
    The real reason why the F-14 was retired (its Carters fault), looks like they scored some parts from the Russians and Chinese?

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...raps-the-f-35/
    The Canadians, The Australians, Isrealis and others (including some more honest members of the Marines, USAF and especially
    Navy) know the F-35 will NEVER be operational. Scrap the plane- save the parts (of any are still worthwhile) and retriofit the rest of the fleet.

    Quote-
    Canada can back away from the F-35 if the program goes terribly wrong. “We’re in good shape, actually, because we haven’t signed a purchase contract,” Lt.-Gen. Watt said. “Everybody’s worried running around in Canada but … we haven’t committed to actually purchasing the airplane. When we do, we’ll know the cost at the time.” If the F-35 is cancelled outright, Canada may be saved from buying a lemon, said Stephen Staples, head of an Ottawa-based military affairs think tank. “The problem is the plane was designed by committee and it operates like it was designed by committee. It tries to do a lot of things, and doesn’t do them very well,” said Mr. Staples, president of the Rideau Institute.

    Judging by hand gestures the F-35 has not even left the 'financial ground' yet and its probably owes the US DoD 1.5 trillion
    dollars in wasted expenditure which could be better used to keep combat planes flying and new 4.5 models and more for
    grunts as well...
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 17-08-2011 at 10:10 AM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Tomorrow when the war began. Watched it. Have to say the F-18 would have pulled chaff and flares (ir or radar of course) and dodged those J-10's (why did Isreal abandon the Lavi design)... quite pessimistic as F-18s are quite maneuverable.

    F-15s pay a visit up North
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlhD3Uvim-w

    Taiwan to score upgrade F-16Cs or the A's get upgraded. They should also go shopping for Rafale
    or Eurofighter as well to balance the airpower over the Formosa Staight
    Quote-
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...cb03b1b8f3.3d1

    Quote-
    NEW YORK — A senior US official all but confirmed reports that Washington will help Taiwan upgrade its 145 US-made F-16 A/B fighters, rather than selling the more advanced jets coveted by the island.

    The official, speaking to reporters on condition of anonymity on Monday, could not confirm the information until Congress is notified of the US administration's decision, which the official said will happen "Wednesday afternoon."

    The official sought to clarify leaked reports about the F-16s after saying "something got lost in translation" amid suggestions that Washington was caving in to a powerful China.

    "Assuming the decision is to upgrade F-16 A/Bs, they will provide essentially the same quality as new F-16 C/D aircraft at a far cheaper price," the senior US official said.

    "And Taiwan would stand to get 145 A/Bs versus only 66 C/Ds and we're obviously prepared to consider further sales in the future," the official said.

    There were renewed calls for the United States to help Taipei update its fleet last week after two Vietnam War-era jets crashed, killing all three pilots.

    A congressional source said Friday that Washington had decided not to sell Taiwan F-16 C/D, the improved version of F-16 A/B now serving the Taiwanese air force, for fear of upsetting Beijing.

    Many countries upset Beijing from Moscow, Vietnam, S.Korea to New Delhi. So maybe its time ahem tell them to stop threatening everybody in S.E Asia instead. US Debt jokes aside it can easily be also wiped
    due to some reverse financial trickery as well...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MizgC...eature=related
    F-15's over Moscow. No really- just a airshow.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m87CO...eature=related
    SU-27s and F-15s flying together.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 28-09-2011 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote-
    You wouldn't believe how often Russian bombers probe Canadian Airspace. I hope to god we don't some day end up causing the next 007...
    wasteofspace1234 6 days ago



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAOgDlfzsI0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7xcV...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Rzl...eature=related
    40% of Canada is in the Arctic. 25% of the world oil is in the region. So much for the Middle East being the only one.
    China now also wants to be in the Arctic too.

    &
    I grew up during the cold war, I remember that 1983 year as a year when people were looking up in the sky thinking the Soviets were going to drop bombs on us or something. As much as I hated them, I do feel bad for this guy, I think I would have to believe he really thought it was a spy plane. But I am sure as time goes on, he will accept that he killed innocent civilians.

    The blame is solely on human fear all around.
    mrceebees1

    Yes everybody out there to think its 'over'. Back here it ain't. Canadian F-18's won't shoot down a Bear and thats 'armed'.
    It questions the Russian generals directive of shooting a plane down that was unarmed. It could have forced the plane
    down inspected the plane for 'jamming and ecm or photographic equipment and sent it on its way. Then the Chinese
    in the P-3 incident in 2001 is another story...


    The fighter pilot that almost started WWIII. Fourtunately it did not happen. There are many 'conspiracies' surrounding both
    sides of the events on the night of 1 September 1983. Operation Able Archer started after this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouuPh...el_video_title
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmra...eature=related

    Quote-
    The Soviet military suppressed evidence sought by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) investigation, notably the flight data recorders,[6] which were eventually released eight years later after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    I'll tell you one thing and you won't hear it from Wikileaks I doubt is that its internal computers and radar
    were being jammed by the sophisticated Russian radar and ecm systems there. It could explain why 007
    was offcourse before a MRM was launched. The particular MRM would have hit there plane in the right
    place their might not have much for 'investigators' to go from...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLVrg...eature=related
    The British conspiracy surrounding the American version of events. Wizards your old enough to remember.
    Like the B-29 some plane live with infamy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tJb-bmgBC0
    Back from the dead. Well almost. I know what killed her in the end...The pilots also pushed a old plane too hard....
    The oil burning heaters should have been disconnected. 2000hp engines generate allot of heat. As well
    as the starter that should have been removed. Old school aircraft do 'overcharge'.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOf2L...eature=related
    Nearly did it..

    http://www.jsf.mil/news/
    JSF can fly. Can it fight. Thats the Wally question. The F-22 is now flying again and it won't achieve those same
    gains. Procurement numbers are the big question more or less..a fly-off like the 90's used to would be helpful.

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/ameri...108253-su27-0/
    Sourpuss. Just testing how the opposition goes. Learn from it problems and advantages and develop tactics against it.
    Its more than just a airframe you know- its a strategy. Well its easier than the old days to acquire planes.

    Quote-
    The website said that Russia’s Su-27 fighters were technically similar to F-15 jets, although the Russian planes were 30 percent cheaper.

    The American answer to that question? JPD80 Maybe is that we included the other 30% they could not work out...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3hW5...eature=related
    Correct they were not armed.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL30946.pdf
    A good overview of how one single airplane can change politics like gunboat diplomacy.

    Quote-
    At around midnight on the night of April 3 (about noon in Washington), the U.S.
    Defense Attache in Beijing, Brigadier General Neal Sealock, finally gained access to
    the detained crew members on Hainan island, but he was unable to secure their
    release.10 After hearing from General Sealock, President Bush issued a second
    statement in the afternoon that day, saying that “now it is time for our servicemen and
    women to return home. And it is time for the Chinese government to return our
    plane. This accident has the potential of undermining our hopes for a fruitful and
    productive relationship between our two countries.”11 Later, Secretary of State Colin
    Powell explicitly expressed “regret” for the loss of the PLA pilot.12

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdMEC...eature=related
    Lets hope Al Quida is not reading this. Russia has also lost a few.
    Lebvedev also talked about 'briefcase nukes ' on Google... Al Quida claims to have them...
    It would be rather embarrassing to say the least. The idea
    of a artificial sunrise has remained. Russian bears are sometimes
    armed. So the problem of something at the bottom of the Atlantic
    or on Canadian ice. Interesting scenario to say the least. 12 lost
    which still does not include the other 11. According to Russian
    reports which are unsubstantiated up to 50 could be- of theirs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZSXn...eature=related
    Although after many tests props could never go supersonic so
    they just flew higher instead.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5D9p...eature=related
    Great landing and excellent work from 'chase car'.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sbxA...eature=related
    Not a bomber or fighter pilot but a FAC...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeuON...eature=related
    Vs the F-22? Keep De Dreaming the Russians won't sell your PAK-FA...
    It would only be due to some 'data theft' would they ever get the specs
    for the -22. The Isrealis thank they know the specs anyway.
    The term 'build it yourself or copy of others mistakes' never
    entered their heads.

    Supposedly the deadliest thing ever created by the hands of man and its kills
    or suffocates you or your money back- no money back- more money....YF-12...
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...ckheed-oxygen/

    Quote-
    But that’s not the way the military-industrial complex rolls. The Air Force is giving Lockheed a $24 million contract to conduct a “hypoxia root-cause analysis” in addition to work on “titanium crack growth” and other engineering tasks, according to Defense News’ Dave Majumdar.

    pushing her too hard. pilots soon will have 'paperwork duties' the way things are going.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnaT4...eature=related
    Obviously this F-18 pilot was offended by a particular Australian movie. J10 whatever.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKkRz...eature=related
    What are the odds of a PAK_FA doing the same. Would be interesting to see how it all panned out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RT4y...eature=related
    Whadda woman.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIso...eature=related
    Those old movies

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0qIt...eature=related
    Dunno...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceiNx...eature=related
    One scramble too far.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdArV...eature=related
    The visits are important. Lets hope it continues as lack of communication here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RQCF...eature=related
    Photography near airfields. Try that in Russia or China without permission. Some people...
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 30-05-2012 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by chinamonty View Post
    That is a nice ambiguous statement -is it that they only copy things that are rubbish to start with or when they copy it there products turns out to be rubbish. Chinese factories can and do put out some amazing stuff. We don't get to see it as buyers here always want the cheapest not the best. I have seen gears that were cut in Guangzhou that were world class. You will find a few FIA GT Lamborghinis with Chinese replacement gears in them. You see some interesting stuff when you spend some time in Chengdu, where the J20 is being developed.
    Spent some time researching the J-20. The design seems to be a long range interceptor more than a fighter. The wider than normal fuselage indicates conformal stores and lots of fuel...allot of weight in the rrear...The engines are Russian as well not Chinese.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBbse...eature=related
    or is it a stretch on the pAK-FA design...

    Quote-
    The first test flight coincided with a visit of United States Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to China, and was initially interpreted by Pentagon officials and the media[who?] as a possible signal to the visiting delegation from the U.S.[25] However, after meeting with senior Chinese officials including Chinese President, CMC Chairman Hu Jintao, Secretary Gates remarked, "The civilian leadership seemed surprised by the test and assured me it had nothing to do with my visit."[26] Jin Canrong, a professor at Renmin University in Beijing who specializes in China-U.S. relations, suggested that President Hu's ignorance of the test raises questions about the nature of civilian control of the Chinese military.[27][28] However, as Michael Swaine, an expert on the PLA and United States – China military relations, explained, although it's possible and even likely that "senior officials in the [Chinese] leadership did not know that this flight test would occur on this precise day," this is not necessarily evidence of a military-backed effort to insult Secretary Gates' delegation or embarrass President Hu. Rather, decisions regarding the production, development and testing of such military aircraft are routinely managed by engineers and low-level officials more than by senior civilian or military leadership. Coupled with the fact that there was relatively limited coverage of the event in Chinese media initially, it is likely that the test may not have been considered a significant enough event to warrant notification to President Hu.[25]


    United States House Committee on Armed Services chairman Howard McKeon said on the J-20 "my understanding is that they built it on information that they received from Russia, from a Russian plane, that they were able to copy".[34] MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova has denied that any of the project 1.44 materials had been provided to China.[35]
    Balkan military officials told the Associated Press that China and Russia may have adopted some stealth technology from a Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk, which was shot down by the Serbian military in 1999 during the Kosovo war.[36] If Chinese experts used the F-117 stealth coatings, the result would be decades behind current American state-of-the-art.[37] However, Chinese test pilot Xu Yongling said that the J-20 was a "masterpiece" of home-grown innovation, he also said the F-117 technology was already "outdated" even at the time it was shot down, and could not be applied to a next-generation stealth jet.[38] Janes editor James Hardy agrees that it was unlikely China would have learned much from the wreckage.[39]
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 13-06-2012 at 02:48 PM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by ELSpeedo View Post
    Spent some time researching the J-20. The design seems to be a long range interceptor more than a fighter. The wider than normal fuselage indicates conformal stores and lots of fuel...
    The engines are Russian as well not Chinese.

    Quote-
    The first test flight coincided with a visit of United States Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to China, and was initially interpreted by Pentagon officials and the media[who?] as a possible signal to the visiting delegation from the U.S.[25] However, after meeting with senior Chinese officials including Chinese President, CMC Chairman Hu Jintao, Secretary Gates remarked, "The civilian leadership seemed surprised by the test and assured me it had nothing to do with my visit."[26] Jin Canrong, a professor at Renmin University in Beijing who specializes in China-U.S. relations, suggested that President Hu's ignorance of the test raises questions about the nature of civilian control of the Chinese military.[27][28] However, as Michael Swaine, an expert on the PLA and United States – China military relations, explained, although it's possible and even likely that "senior officials in the [Chinese] leadership did not know that this flight test would occur on this precise day," this is not necessarily evidence of a military-backed effort to insult Secretary Gates' delegation or embarrass President Hu. Rather, decisions regarding the production, development and testing of such military aircraft are routinely managed by engineers and low-level officials more than by senior civilian or military leadership. Coupled with the fact that there was relatively limited coverage of the event in Chinese media initially, it is likely that the test may not have been considered a significant enough event to warrant notification to President Hu.[25]
    Yes I agree that it is more likely an LRI than a straight fighter but I am not really up to date on such matters. The PLA and other forces are not run by the Government per se -they are run and 'belong' to the Communist party who happen to be the Government. HuJinTao as leader of the Communist party is thus the head of the Defence forces and I would be very surprised if the personnel actively running the Defence Forces were not keeping him appraised of what they were doing regarding a first test flight.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by chinamonty View Post
    Yes I agree that it is more likely an LRI than a straight fighter but I am not really up to date on such matters. The PLA and other forces are not run by the Government per se -they are run and 'belong' to the Communist party who happen to be the Government. HuJinTao as leader of the Communist party is thus the head of the Defence forces and I would be very surprised if the personnel actively running the Defence Forces were not keeping him appraised of what they were doing regarding a first test flight.
    I don't pretend to know whats going on here but I think something went wrong and the buck stops somewhere. You ever worked for the military before.... then politicians...then public servants.
    You also forget espionage involvement in getting avionics for the J-20....JSF...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wur85JYnbTQ
    Crash testing a Gripen. JSF is crash tested?

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html
    PAK-_FA in detail.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FujKSEJLuY0
    Or was the Turkish plane shot down a Wild Weasel not a Recon bird...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0kAJ...eature=related
    When it goes wrong.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...egy/56097706/1
    B-1Bs to based in Australia?? rumour mill.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmXvQ...eature=related
    RF-4 close study. Looks like almost flying in the 'Med...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yolVS...eature=related
    F-111s at Nellis back when they were new. Sigh.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPgm-...eature=related
    bring it out of retirement...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nIwIXL32s
    He has'nt gone supersonic in a while. How we take for granted things these days...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ra-desert.html
    Perfectly preseved unlike the mythical 20 spitfires buried supposedly in crates in Burma.
    This looks like a Indian grave. Bad luck and better left alone. The plane- left unrestored
    as a memorial in the sands of time. Would not want to have been the pilot trying to
    find my way out of a desert- possibly wounded to safety- in a world war...

    Quote-
    ‘He must have survived the crash because one photo shows a parachute around the frame of the plane and my guess is the poor bloke used it to shelter from the sun. The radio and batteries were out of the plane and it looks like he tried to get it working.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1ajEMvs4rU
    How the old feel young again- from a few memories- filling in for dead mens shoes- yes thats how wars
    are really like. The old men and women from WWII are passing on now and stories are getting less...
    B-26 flies again...

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/...e-auditor-says

    Its more expensive the F-22 and the F-22 is a killing machine. The f-35 was designed as
    a more affordable compromise to the F-22 for overseas customers who were not allowed to
    buy the F-22 even though they were allies. The reason why the F-15 and F-16 programs
    were so sucessful and Lockheed Martin has failed again....stealth also entails higher
    maintainance costs as well.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xATn1MagKx0
    This is the F-35 program- Project Failure model 35.
    Im no fighter pilot I know a failed program when I see one- I don't sell fairy floss either.

    Many reports on the F-35 state its range, performance and only front stealth capability and hacking
    by the Chinese have scruttled the entire program.
    I think the money would be better spent on going to 6th generation as the Russians and Chinese
    can already soon field 5th generation jets making our advantage nor as big

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...oncept-384291/
    5th generation is old hat long live the 6th- Firefox in reality who knows?

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-fleet-383701/
    F-18 gets more grunt...
    \
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 15-09-2013 at 06:49 PM. Reason: thats avionics not avoincs

  23. #98
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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia


    Quote-
    The troubled F-35 fighter jet, which is supposed to serve as the backbone of the U.S. military’s future air combat forces, may cost much more than the nation can afford, a federal auditor told a Senate panel Wednesday.


    Yes Boulton Paul though this would be a 'awesome' fighter. Sadly it was slower than it contemporaries, had poor
    roll and turn rates and was easy pickings for me109's. This is a sad state of affairs and reminds me in the 60's
    when everybody thought missiles and not the 'rules of engagement' would change outcomes. Vietnam was a hard
    lesson- lets not repeat. Reliance on a 'single' form of technology as a war winner is foolish thinking. If this is
    the way Lockheed designs its products its headed the way of Enron and may never be trusted with such
    a big project ever again.The F-22 was cut down for the very same reasons like the A-12 was.The Navy and Army needs
    new stuff too.


    http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...einglockheed03
    Lockheed makes toys Boeing makes planes(and wise versa)....and is not so cry baby either. If Boeing was doing the same
    thing Lockheed would tear it to bits. While they serve the same customers they hate each others guts
    but still need each other to survive. Confusing to say the least.

    http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the...ts-and-reality
    When the public start seeing faults you know its doomed.

    Michael J. Sullivan, acquisitions director of the Government Accountability Office, told the Senate defense appropriations subcommittee that current projections call for $316 billion in F-35 development and purchases from now through 2037, an average of $12.6 billion a year. Operations and maintenance costs alone will exceed $1 trillion over the fleet’s 35-year lifespan.

    Congress may want to consider whether the funding assumptions are reasonable in our current fiscal environment,” Sullivan said,


    http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-b...-silent-eagle/
    10 years too late. Like the Canadian Air Force the RAAF im sure is doing a re-think on the overpriced JSF.
    Canada dumped it due to its poor CAP patrol range. Single engine planes don't fare well either.
    Canada remember the F104...Gripens would be nice to complement them. Great STOL...

    http://www.jordoncooper.com/2011/07/...-and-the-f-35/
    Silent Eagle I believe has better CAP range than the bigger Su-35...new powerplant too. Australia
    lost its 'big stick' when it lost the -111...Australia has alot of territory to patrol.

    Quote-
    At Mach 1.6, the F-35 will be almost 450 mph slower than expected fifth generation Russian and Chinese fighters.

    clubbing baby seals? I also hear because of rear engine design the IR signiture of the JSF is huge.

    In other words for non fighter pilots. The SAM operator may not hit you first time (frontal stealth) but
    if you have to come back a second time...thats when things get difficult. If your engine
    has not got enough grunt well...and your jammers are not up to scratch well...its time
    for a nylon letdown or being burnt alive, your choice.

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=65614
    Gripen NG is a ****load cheaper and also has frontal stealth. Just about every 4.5 has it...
    As the JSF is not that as aerodynamic as the Gripen either...supercruise needs aerodynamics+grunt...
    a aircraft version of overdrive. Being able to cover large distance in a short space of time. Lots of advantages.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKlQyPOiRuE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3K1PzmH-2Q
    The problem with UAV's well is hacking. Its much harder to hack into a fighter with a pilot in it....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&f...&v=rlmSG3QU3C0
    Hornets with full glass cockpit just like JSF. It would be easier scrapping the JSF
    and put all the good parts into the F-15 and -18. Lockheed could fix up the F-22
    and work on generation 6...Boeing as well to make a 2 choice ATF II...

    http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/jsf...-balance-test/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=4s6i17soUjg
    Lockheed tarts up the F-16. Revenge of old school? Those pods don't look very aerodynamic...too much drag.
    The F-16 is a superb low speed dogfighter but once you increase speed and altitude....2 engines win always...
    Not to mention the survivability aspect...

    http://resources.infosecinstitute.co...-main-threats/

    http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/02/09/au...us-f-22s-mate/
    Is a export F-22 avaliable? Who knows. Carlo sells Russian crap. Cheap Americanski copy...
    Costs to restart F-22 production? I think Lockheed is just pulling numbers out of its arse to sell
    the lame joint strike failure.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caJtGXMdxGM
    Flight Characteristics of the P-51 Mustang. For the fans. Or those reliving old memories or past lives...when fat old Georing
    saw Mustangs over Berlin- he knew the war was over...Air Traffic control fans will notice the 'old days' before
    new rules removed the humor...

    Even faster than the American Mustang the which max'd out at 437mph
    this Aussie CA-15 version hit 504mph- when you consider near 2000hp....+
    as fast and longer range than the American P-51H

    Considering the speed of sound is not that far away either. Sadly the phototype was scrapped and
    only photos remain of the last real Australian made fighter plane. I find it funny and when you
    look at the Falcon vs Mondeo debate it was a American airframe with a British engine made it
    the fastest bird in the skies. Now with a Australian motor will fast becomes even faster
    and the Australian Mustang fixed some 'compressibility' issue after Mach 0.76 when you
    look at the modified intake and even bigger engine.It never saw combat so no
    Japanese, German or later North Korean pilots had nylon letdowns...to correct the
    igorant aviation enthusiasts- it was designed by a German, perfected by a American
    and with a British engine well...and in this case made even faster by a Australian...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWfAd7KZoks
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtybxIMIdt4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kyCundQnxA
    Live Bait. 35 More Me109s did not stop two very angry P-51s...The problem with the Me109
    was it was very nose heavy at low speed. The FW190 (early models) had big front guns
    but wings that were allergic to .50 cal. The Dora9 was a better plane (the 51 was lighter but)
    but not built enough and the Ta152 was rare. Germans are always good for flak though. Though most of the big
    German aces flew 109's...
    Not a single bomber lost with the red tail watching your back either. The P-51 carved
    its way into history by being designed what it was to be used for not being kept behind...like the JSF

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gob7EWL2ZeU
    Jet blast is dangerous- watch were your standing. The F-15 has enough engine thrust to
    give a Saturn V a drag race. So logic does not factor highly here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlReZySwPPY
    While the JSF will never have the range or warload to compete with the -111 at low level.
    A pilot brings her in for a landing with tailhook only...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6_iZjdO0mE
    Some people may be working out a interesting analogy here. 100 days to build. The JSF continues to fail.
    The Ford Falcon is of the same analogy. The American sedan was too slow and unmaneaverable the
    Falcon was cheaper, faster, lighter, longer range and with a better superstucture. After all they were
    designed to be-rear ended at 140kmph so im told...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD1M...g&feature=fvwp
    Going to land because of that excuse. I don't control the weather either...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZFgl_H07I
    Well If I had a time machine the TSR-2 would be built. It would have sent terror in Hungarian & other Eastern
    European ground controllers as a low flying powered bullet headed towards Moscow....Why Lockheed must
    always treated with a deal of suspicion..poor Saunders Roe.. Lockheed got the 'secrets of stealth' from
    the Germans from none other than the Horten Brothers....

    The original is still under lock and key. Now that would be one plane I would like to see up close.Looks like
    they may have also solved the control issues of flying wing problems Jack Northrop was having...


    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013...tealth-plan-b/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pteMgYPm1xM
    The navy has more brains than the airforce in following a failed project sucking money when their fleet is falling to bits...
    The Navy has a long memory it remember the failed navalised overpriced long delayed unreliable, buggy and high maintenance
    F-111(ok they fixed up the -111 problems in the F/G models but by then)....and McNamama screwing around with plane
    procurement when he could only build cars not planes..The Marines while not talking about it officially are now looking
    at Gripen as it is STOL and JSF needs big runways(as its underpowered)...downside in a war zone....Their Harrier airframes
    won't last forever. The Brits should bring theirs out of retirement. The Chinese also have hacked into Lockheed stealing
    their plans on sensors and stealth capabilities....making their plane a baby seal....Lockheed cannot use
    secrecy to hide the planes lack of suvivability in hostile airspace..especially in different rules of engagement
    where you need visual ID...means that stealth would be useless in a dogfight. case closed. Most flight
    enthusiasts remember the Starfighter and how the USAF abandoned it (went with the Navy Phantom ironically)
    and gave it to NATO to screw over their own local aircraft industries. I think Lockheed is in deep trouble. Many German pilots
    payed with their lives when Lockheeds fighter was a death trap in low level operations and with very poor handling at low
    speed it was well um...

    http://cdn.nextgov.com/nextgov/inter...ays%2F61832%2F
    I remember back when the original contract was there full IOC before 2014. 2016-2018-2019-2022-2032 whenever.
    By then other airforces may have more capable planes instead...IT WILL NEVER BE READY WHEN THE AIRFRAME
    LIMITS THE WHOLE DESIGN. Boeing is working on Generation 6 while Lockheed blunders generation 5 obsolescence...

    Quote-
    The GAO report echoes criticisms in a January report to Congress by J. Michael Gilmore, director of operational test and evaluation for Defense. That report said the Pentagon has made “virtually no progress in the development, integration, and laboratory testing” of software for production versions of the F-35.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdFU-wCNOGk
    You'd think with all of 'Lockheeds secrets' you'd think they controlled the River Styx or something.
    How Lockheed scams its customers...

    In other words the project is unfixable and ready for the scrappers torch...

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...uture-1.363626
    The Isrealis (who do most of the US foreign weapon testing) think the JSF is a failure back in 2011. It would
    not survive heavily defended airspace. Thats why they wanted the F-22...so did the Aussies...and the Japanese...

    Quote-
    The magazine urged the U.S. to continue producing F/A-18s, F-16s and F-15s so fallback options are in place. But the JSF has a potent constituency, including workers and suppliers in congressional districts nationwide. In Fort Worth, about 5,000 work on the fighter, and Lockheed said the program generates about 133,000 direct and indirect jobs in the U.S.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0G300W20130802

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f2XbOY9kcg
    Who put them through to the Pentagon?
    Due to budget austerity I gather in the US Military at present im sure the JSF is the chicken that has been left in the oven too long. That electricity bill is huge.

    Quote-
    Aug 1 (Reuters) - The U.S. military on Thursday downplayed concerns it could cancel the F-35 fighter and a new stealth bomber, after leaked documents from a budget review suggested the programs might be eliminated as one way to deal with deep budget cuts.

    Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said on Wednesday that finding $500 billion in budget cuts required by law over the next decade, on top of $487 billion in cuts already being implemented, required tough trade-offs between the size of the military and high-end weapons programs.

    Pentagon briefing slides shown to various groups mapped out those tradeoffs in stark terms, indicating that a decision to maintain a larger military could result in the cancellation of the $392 billion Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 program and a new stealthy, long-range bomber, according to several people who saw the slides.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vljPZJS90U
    The RAAF was very close to buying the TSR-2
    back in the 60's while the F-111 was going from one failure to the next.

    http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com...at-cmts-114963
    Some Canadians have never forgiven American interference to kill of their own aerospace industries.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8s4f4Mecn8
    Much longer range than the JSF.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGco66RoJtc
    Its Lockheeds fault($$$) the real JSF did not win- the F-23. Much more stealtier than F-22.
    The true sucessor to the F-15 was never built. The F-22 still needs the F-15...so it never
    really replaced it.

    Aeronautic engineers wannabes will see the planes design gives a few advantages. The hidden
    intakes would also make it very hard to lock-on to...and their is no tail like the F-22..easier to maintain
    than the F-15 nice. She like the F-15 has a natural design beauty with a flowing design rather than abrupt
    chines on the f-22..at 5-6Ghz for you computer nerds in raw computing power...back in the mid 90's


    Quote-
    The former Howard government and Air Force chiefs ignored advice from defence officials in 2002 against rushing into the Joint Strike Fighter project amid concerns that too little was known about the aircraft's cost and capabilities.
    Documents released under Freedom of Information reveal that officials explicitly advised against signing up to the ''system development and demonstration'' phase of the JSF, which has since been beset by delays, technical problems and cost blowouts.
    The officials, from the department's Investment Analysis Branch, also recommended that the Howard government keep its options open in choosing Australia's future combat air craft under the ''Air 6000'' program, rather than lock itself into the JSF, otherwise known as the Lockheed Martin F-35.


    If the Canadian conservative government is giving it the chop and numerous European nations are the UK...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
    I think South Korea should look at both sides of the story for it KF-X competitor. Stealth is not invincible
    as shown in Bosnia in 1999. ECM is still very important...

    http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pb...plate=printart

    Quote-
    HOLLOMAN AIR FORCE BASE, N.M. - Stealth fighters like the one that went down in Yugoslavia are vulnerable to enemy attack, despite their reputation, the commander of the fighter wing where the F-117A Nighthawks are based said yesterday.

    "They are not invincible. They are not invisible," said Brig. Gen. William Lake, 49th Fighter Wing commander. "They are what I frequently refer to as low-observable, capable of going against certain threats."

    In NATO's first confirmed combat loss of the campaign in Yugoslavia, a U.S. F-117A went down Saturday night about 30 miles northwest of Belgrade. A combat rescue team retrieved the pilot.

    U.S. and NATO officials declined to say why the plane crashed. A senior U.S. defense official said there are strong indications the aircraft was hit by a missile.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_countermeasure

    Quote-
    An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly. It is used effectively to protect aircraft from guided missiles. Most air forces use ECM to protect their aircraft from attack. It has also been deployed by military ships and recently on some advanced tanks to fool laser/IR guided missiles. It is frequently coupled with stealth advances so that the ECM systems have an easier job. Offensive ECM often takes the form of jamming. Defensive ECM includes using blip enhancement and jamming of missile terminal homers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar-absorbent_material
    If its on wikipedia you know its already low tech. The Chinese and Russians have their own stealth planes and anti-stealth.
    radars. Advanatage nil.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=227431376
    The JSF has much to be desired. Its limitations mean it won't be first in or last out....

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...cutive-officer
    Probably because the Chinese stole the software systems like the b-2 programme.....

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p22-620995.xml
    On a related note we have some comptition...

    A copy of the Saturn V and then some... China makes a Saturn V copy to comptete with the original design...is the
    Space Race back?

    http://www.redorbit.com/news/science...nce-community/
    Want to think there is more to the physical world than just words? Their is mathermatics quietly working away.

    The South Korean air force has managed to derail the selection of the Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle for its F-X Phase 3 fighter requirement, instead pushing for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning but again raising doubts about the openness of the country’s combat aircraft competitions.

    If South Korea does eventually choose the F-35, it will be the third non-partner country, after Japan, to order the aircraft despite its cost and the risk of renewed development difficulties.

    The entire F-35 design is a bridge too far. A jack of all trades and a master of none.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article...._p0-620093.xml
    Take the dogfight to 100,000ft and see how long the single engined JSF will last against F-15 or SU-35

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKDPX8PEiVk
    The sacred rule of designing military aircraft that merging a bomber and a fighter will yield compromises...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv5CG8aVH4
    Only 18kg put on some muscles...

    Quote-
    The EADS offer further includes an aircraft maintenance facility and an aerospace software center, says Yonhap news agency. South Korea could build, or at least assemble, most of its Typhoons, say industry officials. The U.S. bidders are also offering industrial benefits (AW&ST April 15, p. 52). Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), already building major assemblies of the F-15, could step up its involvement in that program, while for the F-35 the industry would receive advanced manufacturing work on a project with a long prospective production life. Crucially, South Korean F-35As would not rely on a Japanese maintenance base, says an industry official. Lockheed Martin's offer of technology transfer had better match what the company has given Japan, says a government official. “South Korea won't put up with second-best anymore,” he say

    Treetop flying contender. Always when you are lower to the ground there are more
    obstacles. For more observant forumers can listen to the pilots breathlessness
    as the G's and speed increases in the canyons. Great flying lots of concertration.
    Night flying videos are the best and scariest though they claim many lives.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1EX_PC1Bxs

    http://defensetech.org/2013/12/13/bi...-a-10-warthog/
    A A-10 with a big gun is more scary to a tank crew than a uav somebody can hack into.
    I think the UAV craze has to end. Manned aircraft still have their place and advantages
    UAV have limitation at.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT19WpM13yo
    Freedom is never really free- A silent tribute to those KIA or PoW
    from the Cold War. Alone, unarmed and afraid.
    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 29-03-2014 at 02:48 PM.

  24. #99
    Banned ELSpeedo's Avatar
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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia



    Quote-
    Gen Moseley and former USAF Secretary Michael Wynne - who was also asked to resign - had argued that a total of 381 fighters were needed to maintain 'air dominance' over hostile territory.

    Speaking on 5 December, Gen Moseley said he had no regrets about his vocal advocacy, and, if anything, said he wished he had fought harder.

    "I would tell you that, knowing what I know now, I would have been more aggressive in protecting that airplane and the building blocks of fifth generation systems in the future," he said.

    Gen Moseley said he still believes more F-22 fighters are needed to ensure the US can maintain a deterrent posture. He also said that certain US partner countries, including Australia, Israel, Japan, and the UK should be able to buy the F-22 through foreign military sales (FMS).

    Well Australia may gets its F-22 yet if JSF turns out to be a expensive underpowered lemon.
    Canada will go SuperHornet or GripenNG considering JSF does not meet flight range requirements...
    Maintenance costs skyrocket with JSF so F-22 may be better considering it can actually dogfight.
    I don't see why any sacred cows are in the US Defense Budget.
    Still IOC seems miles away as the JSF has made many mods.
    Or the Silent Eagle may win yet in the long run.

    http://www.janes.com/article/31243/o...-22-production

    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...ter_jet_cu.php
    Yes the F-16 is cheaper and more maneaverable and considering the JSF is only frontal stealth only
    it has a rear IR signature too big too ignore.

    Quote-
    Clingendael says the JSF will only be needed if the Netherlands wants to take part in the opening phase of military interventions. But the high cost of the JSF will lead to ‘serious limitations’ to the country’s maritime operations – such as the role the Netherlands currently plays in protecting commercial shipping against pirates. - See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive....DSpKTIMT.dpuf

    Yes its hopeless out to sea (one engine problem) and needs tankers which may not be possible- in contested airspace.

    Quote-
    Prof. Lex van Gunsteren (Delft University of Technology): “The JSF is a complete failure from an engineering design point of view. It is supposed to fulfill three different missions: close-air support (assisting ground forces in their combat), air-to-air fighting (also called ‘dogfight’: combat with other fighter planes) and long-distance bombing. Two of these missions, close-air support and air-to-air fighting, require a maneuverability that the JSF cannot deliver due to its unfavorable lift/weight ratio. Multiple purposes have multiple weight consequences, which are responsible for the unfavorable lift/weight ratio and consequently poor maneuverability of the JSF. No wonder that the result is an airplane that was qualified in the presentation of the 2008-RAND-report as ‘next to useless’, since it ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’.”

    In his book, Van Gunsteren pleads for quality management focused at fitness for purpose rather than compliance with specifications, rules and regulations. Real life examples like the JSF case illustrate his approach, which concerns a mindset rather than a recipe for effective quality management.

    http://www.iospress.nl/ios_news/join...point-of-view/

    The only reply I hear from Lockheed is 'unit costs will go down'.
    Other countries should not be responsible for the failures of
    a company not to sell the right product in the first place.
    Another German Starfighter Saga to me...

    No Starfighter? But what about all the jokes then?

    "How can you easily acquire a Starfighter?"
    "Just buy a big tract of land and wait."


    A common counter-arguement by Lockheed was to complain that German pilots were not good considering
    the starfighters landing setup and poor wing loading..well tricky thing to fly as well as the USAF dumping
    them to NATO after their pilots preferred Phantoms instead. German Aces scored far higher than American
    pilots after all they did not get sent home unless they were badly wounded or dead. Lockheed should
    swallow its pride and admit failure before the Defense Dept does.Chuck Yeager nearly got killed in one
    and his favorite was the F-15 as two engines are always better than one. You don't see top line
    Russian or Chinese fighters with one engine either.


    http://www.rcrinc.com/tanaka/ch4-3.html
    Many hands on the pie can corrupt thinking.

    The basis of this position must be divulged to the Australian public in open forum and be subjected to critical evaluation by interested Australians – not interested foreign contractors and Defence Department bureaucrats advising the Minister.” From Air Vice-Marshal Criss’s perspective, the decision to join the collaborative development team working on the JSF in the late nineties wascommendable; however, unfortunately some appear to have allowed this investment to incorrectly influence the potential procurement advice going to the Minster he said.

    Air Vice Marshal Criss was present at discussions between the Chief of both the United States and Australian air forces in the late nineties when the F-22 was offered to the RAAF and it was dismissed out of hand by the Australian delegate. ‘At the time very little was known about either aircraft and the F-22 was being quoted as approximately four times more expensive than the JSF so I thought the Australian position was understandable at that time’.

    Today, and especially by the expected delivery time for the JSF in 2012 (or perhaps later its now 2014 keep going lol), there appears to be very little if any difference in price between the two contenders and yet there is no comparison in capability, with the F-22 demonstrating proven performance well beyond anything the JSF is likely to deliver when it eventually comes off paper and into production.

    Criss remembers well what Secretary of Defence McNamara sought in the early sixties with the intended multi-role F-111 – “we got an excellent bomber but a worthless fighter – the two roles are too incompatible for a common platform and I don’t care how far technology has moved since the McNamara days.(do any of our aviation buffs remember what happened to the 'navalised f111? the F-14 Tomcat grew from there but a different design completely though using the next gen radar)

    What concerns me is that if the Minister is now saying that the JSF may not be the aircraft for Australia, and I think he is right, and if the Minister is dismissing the F-22 out of hand without disclosing the basis for this decision, then the only other possible contender that could remotely fit the Australian requirement would be the Boeing Super Hornet, a slightly more advanced version of the aircraft currently in service with the RAAF, employing technology far inferior to any potential adversary in our region and incorporating technology far inferior to anything the JSF or F-22 has to offer.( I tend
    to disagree here as our author does not realise the RAAF F-18 from 1988 is many ways different to a updated one in 2014. Chinese Avoincs
    are quite poor as their APG clone unit has some problems I won't publish publicly. They are getting old but and airframes no matter how good they
    are do age)..


    Air Vice-Marshal Criss said that those advising the Minister must be prepared to have their advice examined and challenged in an open forum on neutral ground by appropriately cleared impartial Australian specialists:

    ‘Frankly, it is not good enough to hide under the security classification bubble to protect the Minister and the Government from very close scrutiny of this critical national defence issue – the future generations of all Australians depends on getting the F/A-18 and F-111 replacement decision right, and up to now what I am reading is exactly that – a claim that one aircraft is better than another but I can’t tell you why.

    What I am seeing is a classic ‘Yes Minister’, and Sir Humphrey would be proud but I am not’, the retired Air Commander Australia said.”

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-02681/
    After all the JSF has poor flight range to patrol Australias vast coastline.

    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/5c95d45f86a5
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...r-jsf-planning
    Jack of all trades and master of none.

    Lack of visibility will kill you in a dogfight in more ways than one- cannon fire on a F-35 would not be a good
    prospect either...


    Pentagon officials have said in audit reports that the F-35’s 30-year, $1 trillion operating bill is not affordable.
    But along the way, “affordable” gave way to historic cost increases: The Government Accountability Office (GAO)
    reports that the F-35’s overall price tag shot up 42 percent to $395 billion from 2007 to 2012.

    Gen. McPeak remembers fondly the 1970s and the rise of the Falcon.
    “We chose as a cheap airplane. El cheapo,” he said. “It turned out to
    be surprisingly good. It turned out to do everything we ever expected plus a lot.
    “The Air Force version of the F-35 will never be surprisingly good. It will be good.
    Of course, it’s been plagued by cost increases and capability loss. In my judgment
    it will always be a disappointing aircraft,” the general said.


    Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2w79u2Aqp

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...gripen-394289/
    While the JSF goes to not be avliable when its needed the most- other fighters cheaper and effective the Gripen
    has become the F-16 sucessor and considering the NG can supercruise the slow JSF would be killed easily
    in a dogfight in BVR...and long range IR. The Gripen can take off & land on highways while the hopeless JSF
    in some cases needs bigger runways to take off as its so heavy+un-aerordynamic+underpowered. Also in
    a warzone as many would know as time from bombing and interception mission turn around in important
    stealth planes are a pain to maintain as well and this could lesson mission effectiveness...stealth planes
    are like the WWII night fighters of old and are only suited to certain missions not all. In heavily contested
    airspace when enemy fighters are running amok you better be able to dogfight and then hurry out of the
    area other wise your finished...how many JSF pilots would survive their first ten missions-
    not many. JSF would need fighter backup as well removing the stealth aspect...

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p28-671791.xml
    Stealth killer avoinics now avaliable on 4th generation aircraft. Who needs stealth.
    I suppose the F-18 Growler/F-15/Eurofighter already have stealth killer as well.
    Stealth has weaknesses like any other technology. The next stage is low
    oberservable technology where if you remove the jet noise and the visual
    aspect well thats true stealth in action. Weather that exists or not well...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1GbiuG40Ak
    No man should have to do...another old movie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpTrygZfC-g
    I tend to agree with old Spitfire or Me109 aces that maneaverability,
    speed, firepower and suvivability should never be forgotten. I am
    told in heavily defended airspace- drones are useless. Pilots
    are not out of a job yet.

    http://complex.foreignpolicy.com/pos...e_general_says
    In seriously defended airspace you'd expect hackers to take over your drones and turn they back on you or make
    them land and get a look inside all those goodies...Id prefer exploring the countryside in a A-10 instead.

    http://complex.foreignpolicy.com/pos...e_general_says
    I liked the previous General of the US Airforce was correct. No compromise F-22 only no cheap master of nothing JSF's.
    The JSF should not be a sacred cow when other more important programs need funding especially large tank armies in Eastern Europe's greatest foe...
    The JSF is a failure in deserving a bloody sacrifice. The good systems can be sold on to existing platforms so no good stuff
    is lost except it inferior airframe which dooms the whole project. This program has costed to much and delivered very little for front line defence.
    I cannot believe some aviation people still associate with a program with such failures no pilot wants to fly it as it weaknesses
    are too well known. The JSF program is a laughing stock to the avation community knowing about Lockheeds
    political meddling...in the fighter mafia the JSF is the weak link in our national defense. The bomber mafia
    im also told are interested in a successor to the B-2 due to Chinese espionage. The JSF is not needed
    as its survivability is low in defended airspace...the trillion dollars on JSFs could be better used on
    other project as the Ukraine shows the JSF has failed in more ways they have realised.


    Along with the F-15 the A-10 was feared by Russian tank columns as this Russian inspired simulation shows.

    Russian tank commander- I see slow moving plane on the horizon with two tails. Something is jamming my SAMS.
    Better go and hide before 30mm cannon remodels countryside. The A-10's used to be at home back at Bentwaters.


    Quote-
    For more than two decades, the A-10 Thunderbolt II has provided aerial protection to ground troops, a task it has performed from Iraq's "Highway of Death" in the first Gulf War to the Taliban strongholds of eastern Afghanistan. Few people at the Pentagon challenge the plane's reputation for providing forces with the best support possible.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...02180502232524
    http://www.realcleardefense.com/arti...10_107058.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_air_support

    Quote-
    In the case of the A-10, the usual opponents of defense cuts are joined by military reformers who argue the Air Force is sacrificing a proven plane to save money for expensive but more exciting fighter jets. Critics of the plan say the Air Force has never fully embraced the A-10 or its mission of providing air support for ground troops, and that mandatory budget cuts known as sequestration are merely providing the Pentagon with a convenient way to get rid of the plane.

    "The Air Force is simply using sequestration and sensible budget constraints as an excuse to kill a system it never wanted in favor of the overpriced, behind-schedule, less-capable boondoggle that is the F-35" fighter jet, said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight. The F-35, the most expensive Pentagon weapons program in history, has faced cost-overruns and questions about its role for the military. The Pentagon is investing hundreds of billions in developing the F-35 to be its most advanced jet fighter. Opponents of the F-35 say the Pentagon's focus on protecting the expensive jet comes at the expense of more reliable existing Pentagon programs, like the A-10.

    The Russians can shoot down a JSF easy but the armoured bathtub has more better design to suvive CAS than the non armoured JSF-
    likes its Russian copy the Su-25 Frogfoot which also did great CAS in the Afghanistan war. The JSF is not combat tested nor
    is it in full operational service and is nothing more than a failed program who funded should be allocated to many more options
    for our nations defense than relying on just one- and a poor inferior one at that. The Stuka and Sturmovik are benchmarks
    for a troops version of CAS deadly, terrifying,big bomb load, long loiter time and armoured- the JSF is not in the same league.
    The underpowered JSF won't outurn its predecessor(instantaneous/sustained turn rate) the F-16 either making it MiG food.
    Few Migs would tangle with a A-10 considering its low speed maneaverability and if that big gun turns your way your toast.
    The JSF is the 'baby seal' in comparison and is completely unsuited to CAS- hence its lack of use in Afghanistan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-2

    Quote-
    "They are as essential to the Red Army as air and bread."[5] "I demand more machines. This is my final warning!"[6]

    Joseph Stalin on his insistence on building more 'sky tanks' - Sturmoviks to counter the Panzer armies...

    Well CAS is a important thing but some think its vitally important as well

    https://www.facebook.com/savethea10
    For the devoted wise few who know what defence department pork barrelling JSF belongs- the scrappers torch.
    The scrapping of the JSF would be a very good thing as many more cost-effective projects/reliable/practical programs
    in the army, navy and air force will get more priority than a overpriced 'precious' plane that will never see real combat.
    Stealth now is becoming a very dated technology (it was real big in the 90's but hey times have changed)
    as never jamming and radar/passive radar technologies are making stealth look inadequate as a single protection method..

    http://www.hyperstealth.com/Quantum-Stealth/
    Id love to cover my favorite F-15 in this stuff. This is true stealth- cannot hear, see or track till its too late...


    In defense of my U-2 friends is nothing flies higher or more silent than a U-2 does as a drone is too vulnerable
    to jamming or worse. U-2 still has a very valuable role in remote recon and its sensor systems have
    been updated many times over the years. The global hawk its replacement can only cruise
    at up to 50/60,000ft MAX which means it could be MiG food in defended airspace. Its allot harder to catch
    a U-2 which is flying well above your operational ceiling only a few aircraft known can catch it...
    and some higher altitude longer range SAMS can but countermeasures are known.


    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014...ones-be-hacked
    How to bring down a drone? You can use a mig if you want to blast it easily out of the sky
    or your army of hackers can take over controls land it at a friendly airspace then all your
    engineers can go over it all steal all our goodies and use them against us. A pilot
    in a plane is allot more adaptable and unpredicatble than already programmed
    computer software which its greatest weakness to attack is it sat links....


    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...rone/?page=all
    The Chinese may already have shot a few down or captured some to see how they tick or espionage...making
    the drones flying useless pieces of crap. They should be scrapped not the U-2 as soon
    as a rival knows how your systems work your system has already become obsolete....
    for those stealth nuts who observe the global hawks airframe will know from all the
    large protrosions and big wide wings its easily picked up on modern radar.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p58-669902.xml
    Many of the systems on the U-2/SR-71 still have a much higher security classification than the lowly Global Dork.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_US_endurance_UAVs

    Quote-
    The Global Hawk is not particularly stealthy,

    Quote-
    The Darkstar was unlucky. On its second takeoff in the spring of 1996, it stood up on one wing and slammed into the runway, bursting into fire and smoke. An analysis of the failure showed flight software and takeoff procedures to be faulty.
    The Air Force and the contractors didn't give up right away, and a redesigned Darkstar, now formally designated "RQ-3A", flew in the early summer of 1998. However, the program was still unhealthy, and the Darkstar was cancelled in early 1999. Although flight tests were generally satisfactory, the Darkstar was by no means close to being a useful operational system. Building an actual operational UAV based on the Darkstar would have required major redesign and improvement, and the costs were more than the Air Force was willing to spend.

    Quote-
    According to a recent technical journal, China’s military now has countermeasures for thwarting Global Hawk flights, saying the stealth drone is flown near China’s southeast coast “continually” and thus “countermeasures against Global Hawk are considered.”
    Global Hawk missions are classified. But defense officials say they are worried the aircraft could become targets of China’s military should its air forces try to enforce a newly established air defense identification zone over the East China Sea.

    Last edited by ELSpeedo; 31-03-2014 at 11:22 AM.

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    Default Re: No F-22 for Australia

    I think I have worked out what the jsf is meant to be
    its not a fighter plane at all its actually meant to be basically a mobile weapons platform that loiters around with its look down radar system empty's its missiles then hopefully get home.
    which is fine if you have other assets to protect it ie f15's
    which is why I think we have now brought the super hornets and getting growlers as they have realised there limitations and with no new F15's the F22's being off limits leaves the super hornets as the only plane being made atm
    other thing ive noticed is we seem to follow us navy more then air force or marines be interesting if our super hornets and the JSF are carrier capable the hornets built here were built to carrier spec and can have the hook fitted if required, could make for some short landing strips then if needed
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and no one is really sure about the universe yet"
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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